Howdy from East Texas

[wwelch]

All,
Just discovered this site and am very excited to find others who appreciate and lust after deep green lush lawns like I do!
A few facts about my lawn:
1. I've never had a soil test and yes I know I need one, its on my to do list.
2. Mixture of St. Augustine in shady portions, but predominantly Common Bermuda and pesky broadleaf weeds.

My lawn care has been hit or miss in the five years I've been in this home, but this year I drew a line in the sand and said that no more would I be envious of my neighbors, this was the year they would envy me! Now I know I've probably done all manner of harm, but please be gentle...

About a week ago I dethatched my entire lawn pretty heavily (stirring up weed seeds I'm sure). I then put down 5lbs of Common Bermuda in the front (5K approx) with Fertilome Seed Starter granules and used 4x4 fence to 'drag' it in. In the back I just applied Scotts Turf Fertilizer. The back is greening up slowly and the Bermuda Babies are just starting to poke their heads out (our nights have been unseasonably cool, 50s, daytime temps not over 75) in the front. I know they'll really start going once it warms up. Until then I'm light watering every morning and afternoon and plan to taper back in another week or so depending on temps.
My plan for the front yard is to spoil it rotten all summer and let it fill in. Then, about October I want to overseed. I know I have read several posters who say no to overseeding, but I really, really, REALLY want that green look for the winter. How should I do this? Dethatch again...perennial rye/starter and 'drag' it in? If not pere rye, then what? By the way, want to overseed back as well with same.
Any more details you guys need, just ask, because I really have enjoyed reading your advice and have finally worked up the courage to lay my 'sins' at the turf altar and seek atonement.
Thanks!
WW
PS - If you're not overly harsh in your assesments, I'll post pictures of my 'babies' coming up and keep you informed!

[wwelch]

Ok, here is a picture of my bermuda coming up. Taken today, ten days after sow.

http://s1089.photobucket.com/albums/i35 ... -00006.jpg

As I said earlier, it has only been in the mid seventies during the day, dipping into the upper forties at night. Hopefully I'll have bigger results next week.
Thanking all in advance for any advice you can give.

WW

[texasweed]

Then, about October I want to overseed. I know I have read several posters who say no to overseeding, but I really, really, REALLY want that green look for the winter.

Do not do this or you will be very sorry for having to learn the hard way. As the old saying goes you have been told, now it is time you learned. You have already made some critical mistakes for which you cannot take back, don't compound the problem with more mistakes.

[wwelch]

TW,
Thanks for replying back. That's disappointing to say the least. I was looking forward to having a year round green lawn. Tell me this though, how do the area golf courses do it...Overseed and then clear it out for the bermuda to take back over? Surely there is a way, even through the miracles of chemistry, to have my cake and eat it too.

WW

[texasweed]

Tell me this though, how do the area golf courses do it...Overseed and then clear it out for the bermuda to take back over? Surely there is a way, even through the miracles of chemistry, to have my cake and eat it too.

Well that is a bit of a trade secret. I just moved from TX and took a new job as a golf course supt in Prescott AZ and we do over seed, but it is something a home owner cannot do.

The trick or secret is atrazine and iron. Liquid iron products you can buy, but you cannot buy liquid atrazone, only granular forms. The greens are over seeded in October with a mix of cool season grasses. It is a pro mix made specifically for the purpose but contains Rye and Fescues. In spring when the Bermuda wakes up it is sprayed with Atrazine and iron. The atrazine kills off the cool season grass and stuns the Bermuda a bit but bounces back pretty quick when it warms up. The liquid iron helps to heat up the soil to accelerate Bermuda green up.

I will warn you do not try it as you will likely only kill your Bermuda with granular Atrazine. Atrazine is to be used on Saint Augustine lawns and certain food crops. It kills everything else.

[wwelch]

TW
Thanks for responding back...I'm certain that my posts are earning me slow shakes of your head along with knowing grimaces...but I'll press on...
Ok, I'm stubborn I admit, say I do go ahead and clamp my hands over my ears to block out the advice of NOT overseeding and DO in fact overseed come October....I have access *wink wink* to some pretty good varieties of seed. I can promise you I won't be trying your chemical trick, that sounds like a good way for me to nuke the whole deal.
One type I have been looking at is Panterra Annual Rye. Information says that it behaves as an annual, i.e. dies off completely each year, yet shows similar color characteristics to Cutter, Fiesta, etc. Your thoughts on this?
By the way, I admit I'm doing most of this on the 'cheap'. Thats the reason I haven't just sodded the whole thing in. I enjoy tinkering and doing it myself, I figure I'll enjoy the end results more. Plus it taps into my inner 'farmer' to wheel around on my 'tractor' across my 1/2 acre. Thanks again.

[wwelch]

Bump to the top to see if anybody else has any input...thanks!
WW

[texasweed]

OK rather than tell you not to over seed Bermuda I will tell you why not.

In a nutshell you you create a vicious cycle. In the fall when you over seed with Rye grass robs the Bermuda of precious nutrients to store up energy to help it survive the winter and use that stored up energy next spring to green up. That stored up energy also give the grass a few degrees more cold tolerance like anit-freeze in the form of simple sugars and carbohydrates. Ever try to freeze simple surup? It never really freezes hard unless you have a deep freezer. Think ice cream.

Then in Spring the Rye robs even more nutrients, water, and sun delaying Bermuda green up which causes it to thin out and when the rye finally dies off leaves you open to a weed attack in the thin areas. It will be mid June to Early July before the Bermuda thickens up and starts to look good again. Then come October you start all over again and the problems just keep compounding until after a few years all you got is a yard full of weeds with some Bermuda mixed in.

In areas like Phoenix, Las Vegas, South Florida, ect you can get away with over seeding Bermuda because their growing season is much longer and the Bermuda has plenty of time to recover. In addition the Bermuda never really goes completely dormant unless they receive a heavy frost. But for the most part the Bermuda grows well there 10 months or more out of the year. Where you are at maybe 7 months, and this year from what I hear is it is still not warmed up much here in mid May so it maybe mid July before the Rye dies off if it does not warm up and dry out soon. Which means it would be August before the Bermuda recovers. Then here comes October.

Hope that helps.

[texasweed]

OK rather than tell you not to over seed Bermuda I will tell you why not.

In a nutshell you you create a vicious cycle. In the fall when you over seed with Rye grass robs the Bermuda of precious nutrients to store up energy to help it survive the winter and use that stored up energy next spring to green up. That stored up energy also give the grass a few degrees more cold tolerance like anit-freeze in the form of simple sugars and carbohydrates. Ever try to freeze simple surup? It never really freezes hard unless you have a deep freezer. Think ice cream and pop cycles.

Then in Spring the Rye robs even more nutrients, water, and sun delaying Bermuda green up which causes it to thin out and when the rye finally dies off leaves you open to a weed attack in the thin areas. It will be mid June to Early July before the Bermuda thickens up and starts to look good again. Then come October you start all over again and the problems just keep compounding until after a few years all you got is a yard full of weeds with some Bermuda mixed in.

In areas like Phoenix, Las Vegas, South Florida, ect you can get away with over seeding Bermuda because their growing season is much longer and the Bermuda has plenty of time to recover. In addition the Bermuda never really goes completely dormant unless they receive a heavy frost. But for the most part the Bermuda grows well there 10 months or more out of the year. Where you are at maybe 7 months, and this year from what I hear is it is still not warmed up much here in mid May so it maybe mid July before the Rye dies off if it does not warm up and dry out soon. Which means it would be August before the Bermuda recovers. Then here comes October.

Hope that helps.

[Dchall_San_Antonio]

First things first: Please go back to your profile and change the Location field to tell us what town you live in. Your climate and soil conditions are what we are interested in; not your address (for the barbecue that all new guys have to invite us to!).

Second: Not sure how gentle this is, but here's what you're about to learn.

Doing things on a budget can lead to higher expenses (and/or poorer results) down the road.

1. Common bermuda is cheap to buy but it is expensive to keep looking nice. Why? Of all the bermudas, the seed head on the common variety pops up in the most ugly way at the fastest rate. If you want it to be a showplace lawn, you will have to mow it twice a week. If you let the grass get taller than an inch, it will start to thin out and allow weeds to come in. Then, in order to keep it looking perfect, you will spend money on herbicides.

2. Bermuda (any variety) is a nitrogen hog. If you want it to be a showplace lawn, you will have to fertilize heavy every month.

3. Bermuda (any variety) does not 'require' water every week to stay alive, but if you want it to be a showplace, it needs to be watered deeply every week (rain or irrigation).

4. Bermuda (any variety) turns brown in winter dormancy. If you want it to look like a showplace all year, you will have to overseed with cool season grasses. That seed costs more money and the grass requires water, mowing, and fertilizer all winter long. Furthermore, bermuda comes out of dormancy when it gets enough sunlight and heat. If the bermuda is being shaded by the winter grass, it doesn't gets enough sunlight to emerge until late (very late) in the spring. Your response to this will be to panic. We see it EVERY year! In your panic you will start spending more and more money on herbicides, fertilizers, and more bermuda seed. WE SEE IT EVERY YEAR! AND YES I AM SHOUTING!

Your alternative grass is St Augustine. You already have it and know a little bit about it. You probably know that the only place it survives when you stop watering it is in deep shade. That means if you want to maintain a ST Aug lawn, you will have to water it (see remark #3 above). You also know that St Aug is a coarse bladed variety of grass versus bermuda's very fine blades. If that is not a problem, then St Aug would solve your issues. Unfortunately there is no cheap way to have a full St Aug lawn in a few months. You have to sod it. But it can spread surprisingly fast even if you checkerboard the sod in. St Aug will grow right through bermuda and can coexist. If you keep the St Aug mowed high, much of the bermuda will be shaded out. But for a showplace lawn you would want to kill the bermuda first. St Aug requires water to stay alive but it can go several weeks without dying. If you live in east Texas, it can probably go months without dying because of your humidity. But if you want a showplace lawn, you would have to water bermuda exactly like you water St Augustine. As for mowing; St Aug does not require weekly mowing. It looks more uniform when mowed every week, but it is not a requirement for any other reason. Mine is growing like crazy and has not been mowed in going on 3 weeks (lawnmower is broken). I'm not panicking. And St Augustine can look very nice when fertilized once in the spring and twice in the fall. I use organic fertilizer about 5x per year but with chemical ferts, you can do it less often. Regarding weeds: when you mow St Aug at your mower's highest setting, you should never worry about weeds. The grass is far too dense for weeds to get established. And finally, if you water St Augustine every week throughout the winter, it will remain green (except under extraordinary cold (low 20s for several days).

So it comes down to how much do you want to spend and for what?

[wwelch]

TW and David
Can't thank you enough for your sage advice, I appreciate someone taking the time to not only read my posts, but respond back to them.
You know that saying about easier to ask forgiveness than permission? I guess that's kind of what I have been doing. Yes, I know its probably not the best idea to overseed and yes it will create extra work and expense for me in the spring (low frequent cuts, herbicides, fert) and throughout the summer (fert, fert and more fert), but have already rooted it in my mind pretty much. Any others who have done this, I would appreciate any advice on rates, varieties, etc.
As far as expense goes David, I probably should have elaborated. I have no problem spending money on my lawn (fert, water, chems, gas, etc) throughout the year. It's just that one big outlay to sod I'm not keen on. Plus, I think I'd prefer even a halfway decent common lawn to hybrid sod, knowing I did it all myself.
To your St. Augustine info, my two varieties are pretty good lawn 'mates'. Performing in their given arena (sun or shade) quite nicely. I agree, the SA is very resistant to weeds. During the winter months, the only places I haven't seen weeds is in my thick SA patches.
I may have gone a couple of steps past my expertise level posting on this website or maybe just too stubborn to listen to good advice! Anyway, I will keep you posted on my yard as well as my flailings/failings in it! Thanks again.

WW

[Dchall_San_Antonio]

Texarkana! Oh my! That is definitely East Texas!! I was thinking something warm like Huntsville. You are in the same hardiness zone as Dallas, so bermuda will work. I never check zones but yours is a squirrly one. I can't remember anyone else being from there.

We are all stubborn here. Just remember this conversation next April. We reserve the right to remind you.

With this in mind, do you feel like you have a good plan for watering, mowing, and fertilizing this season? I always suggest using a turbo oscillator type sprinkler to get the best (most even) coverage. If you have in-ground system, then the pop up gear driven are the best. For mowing, drop your mower to the lowest position and see how it looks. You will know if you are not mowing frequently enough when you see it looking like it was scalped leaving nothing but brown stems. If you mow low enough, bermuda takes on a horizontal growth rather than vertical. The vertical growth is what looks stemmy when you mow. For fertilizer find your nearest Lesco dealer. Also if you have not already read it, go to the aroundtheyard.com articles and read the one titled, Bermuda Bible. It was written by TW and truly is the bible for bermuda.

[wwelch]

Dave et al
Yes, I'll definitely be holding my breath in the spring to see how fast the Panterra transitions. Everything I have read from TAMU (Gig 'em) says that it is ideal for what I have planned.
I use a rotary mower, set as far south as I can without scalping. I have measured it and it cuts to roughly 1.75-2". I'm figuring for common this will be ok, not ideal, but my yard is a little too big and hilly for a rotory, but not quite big enough for a gang mower, sadly.
My wife is questioning my sanity but I have been dragging sprinklers and hose every morning and evening for almost two weeks now. I have ordered and should get soon a system from wateringmadeeasy.com. My watering regimen has always been as the Bible suggests, by checking my footprints and for wilt.
As far as supplies go, I'm pretty set. I work for a wholesale lawn garden turf, etc distributor. Great prices!
Yes, Texarkana weather is pretty squirrely to say the least. That pesky Red River plays havoc with the track of our storms.
I'll post a new picture next week of my Bermuda babies, they're starting to come up quite nicely now.
Thanks all.
WW

[Josh]

I also spread bermuda seed last year then overseeded rye in the fall. Big mistake. It was great all winter, but the poor bermuda too a bad hit. Even last week there wasnt much out there, although it finally started coming back. You're further north so yours would be even worse with colder temps. I just finished sodding with some great bermuda sod and it looks so much better! I wont overseed again.

[Dchall_San_Antonio]

Hey Josh. Did I warn you about that last fall or was that someone else. Seems like it was someone from SA. My next door neighbor tried that in 2008 and did not put enough seed down. No problem. Then again in 2009 and it looked good until spring of 2010. It never recovered all season last year even with all the rain we got. He tried it again this winter and never watered it so nothing much came up. This season it is very thin and has some weeds that will get away from him if he does nothing.

My lawn is thicker this year than in several years. Wife has me using preemergent (which I take to be CGM) every month. Okay. I never had the go-ahead to go hog wild with fertilizer. CGM is spensive this year, though. I'm paying $65 a bag out at 1604 and Hwy 81 (east).

The overseeding experience is something we have to go through. It looks good when the pros do it.

[Josh]

Dave, if anyone warned me about overseeding I must have ignored them. You're right, sometimes we need to experience these things ourselves. I figured my bermuda was not doing well, and I wanted a perfect lawn for at least a little while.

I posted pics of my rye lawn here: http://aroundtheyard.com/southern/loving-wi ... t3594.html

It was perfect, but difficult to mow. It was wet and sticky all the time, and I didnt even water after it started growing. I had to scrape the bottom of my deck multiple times per mowing. PITA.

[wwelch]

Taken Saturday, May 21, Two weeks post sow

http://s1089.photobucket.com/albums/i35 ... -00009.jpg

http://i1089.photobucket.com/albums/i35 ... -00008.jpg

[Dchall_San_Antonio]

Hey Josh. You've been asked to report your results over on that thread.