Schreibdave's Soil Test

[schreibdave]

New construction in Syracuse, NY. About 15,000 sqft of lawn. Lawn is PR established in May/June.

Soil sample was done at about 5". LL says to do 6" but I could not consistently get down that far. Only later did I see the post that said to sample at a shallower depth. It probably doesn't make much difference since the soil profile was all mixed up anyway - to a depth greater than 6"

I have borax and zinc left over from a previous house so I would appreciate any advice there.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[schreibdave]

I am going to try to tackle some of this project this weekend so I am going to engage in a little self analysis. If my potassium value is deficient by 220 lbs per acre and I have roughly 1/3 of an acre to care for that would mean that I need a total of 220/3 or about 73 lbs of potassium. If I can get 50 lb bags of potassium sulfate from Site One at 0-0-50 that means that I need 146 lbs of the product, or 3 bags.

I dont recall what the application rate is but I think I have it recorded somewhere from previous years. And I assume that this will require monthly apps that run into next year.

Does my math /logic seem about right?

I dont know how to do the analysis on what I need for phosphorous so I will wait on that one.

Thanks!

[ken-n-nancy]

Your potassium value is low. In general, presuming surface application, it is recommended to apply no more than 1#K per ksqft per month. In other words, no matter how low your potassium value is, one would simply continue applying at that rate monthly during the growing season until the soil reaches the desired level, which may take a few years. However, the regular monthly applications will supply what the current grass needs while the soil is gradually being brought up to the desired level.

So, an application of potassium sulfate (aka sulfate of potash, 0-0-50) at 2 pounds of product per 1000 sqft is the typical application rate. Making one application now should probably be the last one for the year. If I were you and going to apply potassium sulfate, I'd just buy as many bags as are needed for the current application. (However, read on for an alternate recommendation...)

Your phosphorus level is very poor. An application of 1#P/ksqft is also in order.

The typical ST6 recommendation (I'm not an ST6 member though) when soil is deficient in both phosphorus and potassium would be to make an application of a balanced fertilizer (such as 10-10-10) at a rate giving 1#N, 1#P, and 1K per 1000 sqft.

I've seen discussions that 10-10-10 fertilizer is currently on sale at Walmart. You may want to pick up as many bags of that as you need and apply that this weekend. 10-10-10 would be applied at a rate of 10 pounds of product per 1000sqft.

[schreibdave]

Thank you!

[andy10917]

Sorry Dave, but you've made assumptions about calculations for lbs/acre (you're not at 6", so lbs/acre need adjustment), don't calculate for interactions (synergistic or antagonistic), other cations, and numerous other adjustments. One application of 10-10-10 won't hurt anything, but your calculations are wrong for the longer term.

[schreibdave]

Ok. I am probably going to use 10-10-10 while i wait for the expert analysis

[schreibdave]

My Walmart didnt have any balanced fertilizer in stock. They did have something like 12-0-12 for $3 but I passed. Went to Tractor Supply and bought 4 bags of 10-10-10 that was on a pallet sitting outside. Big Mistake. The contents were wet, clumpy and already dissolving. I managed to put it down but I cursed the whole time. I will need to find a new source.

[andy10917]

How many Home Depots are there in the Syracuse area? 10,000 or so? It took me 10 secs to check the Liverpool store and know that there are 5 bags of Hyponex 10-10-10 in stock. I will bet there are 10 garden centers also that are between you and the Liverpool HD and they have balanced fertilizers in stock.

[schreibdave]

I'm not saying that I had a hard time finding it. I'm saying that TSC does a poor job of protecting its merchandise from the weather.

My next purchase will be from here https://www.walmart.com/ip/EXPERT-GARDE ... 4cc8ea3c70

[TimmyG]

My next purchase will be from here https://www.walmart.com/ip/EXPERT-GARDE ... 4cc8ea3c70

That is a great option compared to what I've priced at Home Depot and Lowe's. Plus, have 3 bags shipped for free! Lowe's is usually my go-to for 10-10-10.

[schreibdave]

My local HD does not carry anything balanced and my local True Value would have to order it for me (for a few dollars more that Walmart). I just hope they still have it when I place my order. Unfortunately I dont really have any place to store this stuff otherwise I would stock up.

I sent TSC an email complaining of the wet contents of the bags I bought and the local store manager is supposed to be contacting me. What's done is done but I would like to be able to rely on them in the future when I need something and right now I would tend to stay away.

[schreibdave]

Tractor Supply is going to refund my $ for the soggy 10-10-10 which is nice but really what I need is an easy and cheap source for fertilizer that is not soggy.

[schreibdave]

So, i asked Logan Labs to make recommendations and here is what their agronomist suggested. All numbers are lbs per 1000 sqft:
Elemental Sulfur (90%) 15 lbs
Phosphorous (11-52-0) 10 lbs
Potassium Sulfate (0-0-50) 10 lbs
K-Mag (Sul-Po-Mag) 5lbs
Zinc Sulfate (36%) 1lb

He suggested that I break that up into 5 applications and that I aerate prior to each app. 3 apps this season and then 2 more in the spring. He felt strongly about the aeration and said that the P (it might have been the K - my notes are not great on this part) would not move down further than 1/2 inch or so and therefore would not be in the root zone if I didn't aerate.

I dont think I am up for 5 aerator rentals so that's probably not going to happen.

Any comments would be welcome.

[ken-n-nancy]

Hmm. A couple of the Logan Labs recommendations are "conventional wisdom" but run counter to what I would do or what is typically recommended on this site. Rather than express my thoughts, though, I'm really curious to read the perspective of MorpheusPA and/or andy10917 on this.

[Marinegrunt]

Hmm. A couple of the Logan Labs recommendations are "conventional wisdom" but run counter to what I would do or what is typically recommended on this site. Rather than express my thoughts, though, I'm really curious to read the perspective of MorpheusPA and/or andy10917 on this.

+1

I'm far from a lawn pro but I have probably read well over a thousand posts on here doing research. I can say that aerating even one time is rarely recommended let alone 5 times. The only time I've seen it recommended is when Andy says, "well, unless you have been driving your monster trucks, tanks, and your fleet of semis around your lawn lately you don't need to aerate".

I'm also curious as to what Andy or Morph will say about the Phosphorus not making past 1/2" down without aeration. I don't buy it though. So, all other nutrients can go past 1/2" just not P (or K)? I could be completely wrong just doesn't seem logical.

[andy10917]

The agronomist guy who does the Logan Labs is a published author, and he knows what he is talking about. But what he is talking about is either farmland or golf turf or greens. The crop of soil scientists out there have probably 90% of their business be "tell me what I need to do improve this season's crop" (or a green with problems). It's about the desire for maximizing profits (and probably rightly so, for their customers!!).

What ST6 recommends is quite the opposite - we're generally working with people that have 3K - 30K of grass, and can coddle it and spend money on it because it is a hobby and they don't have to make a profit. We preach patience and paying attention to the long-term goal. Forget just agriculture and golf courses - there aren't many businesses in all of America that see much beyond 90 days. My experiences with soil indicate to me that slamming the soil will harsh nutrients forced in through drilled holes just doesn't work - those that practice it are still drilling holes and slamming harsh nutrients 10 years later. Build a soil that has OM and bacteria/fungi and the protozoans will arrive. When they are there, the earthworms will come after them (favorite food). Got earthworms in large numbers? You won't need to be drilling freaking holes in the lawn.

But guess what? It isn't our lawn - if someone wants to do something that I disagree with and they didn't ask for my opinion, I hope it works out for them. I know I couldn't use their techniques and regimens and succeed but maybe they can.

About the "nutrients will only go so deep" angle - yup, probably true if your planning horizon is the next 90 days. Some nutrients bind easily and others leach easily. Oh well. Ask the person why they had to put down Phosphorus again two years later if it bound so tightly. The answer is that it is a function of how you consider the time element.

[schreibdave]

Called Site One (previously Lesco) to ask what they had that was high in P and K because I had a soil test that showed I was deficient. The guy proceeded to tell me how I didnt need to add P and K because they were micronutrients. He said what I need was more N and recommended 14-20-4. That was the best he could do for high P and K. Great.

[TimmyG]

Whatever happened to 13-13-13 from Walmart?

[schreibdave]

"Whatever happened to 13-13-13 from Walmart?"

I dont want to use that much synthetic fast release N.

If I use 13-13-13 I am committed to pouring on the fast release synthetic N which is something I only do in the fall so it will take me longer to get there.

Logan Labs is recommending 11-52-0 and 0-0-50 each at 10 lbs per thousand (spread out over 5 apps). If I do it that way I can continue using milorganite as my primary source of N.

Bummed that I cant just buy these products from Site One but I have a friend who is a golf course Supt who is working on it for me.

[TimmyG]

Roger that. FWIW, I use 11-52-0, 0-0-50, Milorganite (and/or Bay State), and urea. Hopefully your friend will come through for you. Sourcing 0-0-50 at a reasonable price is certainly the biggest hurdle for most and why a balanced fertilizer is more readily recommended at first.