DZRYZH Soil Test Fall 2017

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dzryzh
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Joined: October 6th, 2017, 11:40 am
Location: Detroit, MI
Grass Type: Mix - moving towards KBG
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DZRYZH Soil Test Fall 2017

Post by dzryzh » October 25th, 2017, 6:39 pm

Hello,

Been reading a great deal here and made up my first batches of BLSC and Kelp Help, and thought I would sneak in a soil test before the end of the season. I moved into a new construction home in July, and was essentially forced to seed (hydro) out of the gate to get occupancy. According to the Geotech during the initial dig I have a lot of clay on site. There was no topsoil added prior to hydroseed due to $$ and available time. The lot size is roughly 1.5 acres and there is roughly 0.5 acres in back and 0.5 acres in front that needed grass. The hydroseed came up fairly fast but is sparse. I would like to work my way towards a KBG lawn, but I figure I must address the soil/clay whether by treatment, the addition of topsoil,or a combination of both. Last note; there are some black walnut trees on the property which according to the arborist will prevent other trees from growing in the same area due to juglone.
I assume this has no relevance to the grass as there is grass around th trees, but wanted to make note just in case. Most areas of the lawn receive plenty of sunshine during the day. Whew....now to the soil test. I took one sample in Front and one in Back and took them at the recommended 4" depth per this site from Logan Labs. Thanks in advance for the input/help.


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andy10917
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Location: NY (Lower Hudson Valley)
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Re: DZRYZH Soil Test Fall 2017

Post by andy10917 » October 25th, 2017, 9:45 pm

Make sure to post a Link to this thread into the Soil Test Interpretation Queue, or ST6 will not know when it's your turn to get an interpretation

dzryzh
Posts: 8
Joined: October 6th, 2017, 11:40 am
Location: Detroit, MI
Grass Type: Mix - moving towards KBG
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Re: DZRYZH Soil Test Fall 2017

Post by dzryzh » October 26th, 2017, 1:43 pm

Thanks Andy. Now linked in Soil Test Interpretation Queue.

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andy10917
Posts: 29739
Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 10:48 pm
Location: NY (Lower Hudson Valley)
Grass Type: Emblem KBG (Front); Blueberry KBG Monostand (Back)
Lawn Size: 1 acre-2 acre
Level: Advanced

Re: DZRYZH Soil Test Fall 2017

Post by andy10917 » October 27th, 2017, 8:05 pm

Yup, that's about what I would expect for soil on the North Side of Detroit that's been treated the way your's has been treated.

The TEC's near 20 indicate a heavy soil that could come from either clay or organic matter. The OM% says it isn't organic matter, with 2.23% (poor - Front) and 1.34% (very low - Back) numbers. That means that a lot of the clay probably got graded into whatever "real" topsoil was there.

The addition of a lot of organic matter (chopped leaves, compost, peat moss, etc over time) will help keep the soil workable, and may move the soil a little (not enough) toward a neutral pH. "A lot" means thousands of lbs, not a bag or two.

The cations may be fibbing the test results -- the soil is show a Calcium number so high that the Magnesium and Potassium numbers are show "false shortages". This may be a calcareous soil. There is little that can be done to remove the Calcium, or to lower the resulting very high pH (8.0 to 8.2). The soil's problems are due to excesses, not shortages - that's often how lots of clay soils behave.

The Potassium "false shortage" is fake in degree, not in reality. And the Phosphorus is very short. When P and K are both short, the weapon of choice is balanced fertilizers. Choose a fertilizer like 10-10-10 or 19-19-19 and post the NPK - I'll reply with the application rate and frequency.

The Front is showing an OK Iron number and the Back is deficient. In the end though, it doesn't matter - at your pH of 8+ the Iron isn't available. The only ways to get good color will be foliar FAS treatments or regular use of (naturally chelated) Milorganite.

Note: most of the above is for Spring 2018 planning. For 2017, a good Urea application of 2 lbs/K Urea when the grass stops growing completely is the order of the day.

PS: the next time you run a soil test at Logan, specify "Ammonium Acetate testing of cations". This will eliminate most of the Calcareous soil testing problems. Let us know that the test was run with Ammonium Acetate when posting the results.

dzryzh
Posts: 8
Joined: October 6th, 2017, 11:40 am
Location: Detroit, MI
Grass Type: Mix - moving towards KBG
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Re: DZRYZH Soil Test Fall 2017

Post by dzryzh » October 27th, 2017, 10:55 pm

Andy, Thanks for the feedback. I have a few questions to get a better understanding of how to approach my overall situation.

For 2017:
1.) I will apply 2 lbs/K Urea (46-0-0) when the grass stops growing completely
2.) Should I apply a selective triple Herbicide (Gordon's Trimec - Lawn Weed Killer) still this year? I have various broadleaf weeds in the Back and some in the Front. Note I fertilized, topdressed with Topsoil, and overseeded a small section of the front (60ft x 60 ft) as a trial area 30 days ago (No I did not take the front soil sample from this area). The KBG is coming up and approximately 1" tall in the overseeded area.
3.) Should I do any applications of BLSC and/or Kelp Help yet this year...or too late/no reason to do so?

For 2018:
1.) Am I best served by bringing in Topsoil or a lawn mix (Topsoil, Compost, Peat) and adding an inch or two..or more, or just topdress spring and fall for a few years with the rest of your recommended regimen? I understand if I add more than just topdressing I can kill off the existing grass (I wouldn't care in back, but the front seems to be workable??).
2.) I have easy access to 18-18-18 through Tractor Supply and can apply at whatever rates you recommend.
3.) Can easily send in for a soil retest in early 2018 and specify "ammonium acetate testing of cations" so we can get a better read on the Cal/Mag/Potassium levels.

Thanks again for any input and or advice.


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andy10917
Posts: 29739
Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 10:48 pm
Location: NY (Lower Hudson Valley)
Grass Type: Emblem KBG (Front); Blueberry KBG Monostand (Back)
Lawn Size: 1 acre-2 acre
Level: Advanced

Re: DZRYZH Soil Test Fall 2017

Post by andy10917 » October 28th, 2017, 7:54 am

1.) I will apply 2 lbs/K Urea (46-0-0) when the grass stops growing completely
OK
2.) Should I apply a selective triple Herbicide (Gordon's Trimec - Lawn Weed Killer) still this year? I have various broadleaf weeds in the Back and some in the Front. Note I fertilized, topdressed with Topsoil, and overseeded a small section of the front (60ft x 60 ft) as a trial area 30 days ago (No I did not take the front soil sample from this area). The KBG is coming up and approximately 1" tall in the overseeded area.
Open a different thread - this isn't a soil question, and we will use this as a reference thread for (maybe) years.
3.) Should I do any applications of BLSC and/or Kelp Help yet this year...or too late/no reason to do so?
It won't hurt to get started - what is the goal?
1.) Am I best served by bringing in Topsoil or a lawn mix (Topsoil, Compost, Peat) and adding an inch or two..or more, or just topdress spring and fall for a few years with the rest of your recommended regimen? I understand if I add more than just topdressing I can kill off the existing grass (I wouldn't care in back, but the front seems to be workable??).
To make a real difference would take 3" over the 0.5 (or 1.0) acre area - that's not minor. I would think seriously about whether the budget has room for that, and then start a discussion thread on that topic.
2.) I have easy access to 18-18-18 through Tractor Supply and can apply at whatever rates you recommend.
Apply at 5 lbs/K monthly April to September, except July.
3.) Can easily send in for a soil retest in early 2018 and specify "ammonium acetate testing of cations" so we can get a better read on the Cal/Mag/Potassium levels.
OK

dzryzh
Posts: 8
Joined: October 6th, 2017, 11:40 am
Location: Detroit, MI
Grass Type: Mix - moving towards KBG
Lawn Size: Not Specified
Level: Not Specified

Re: DZRYZH Soil Test Fall 2017

Post by dzryzh » October 29th, 2017, 12:00 am

Thanks Andy. I tried to reply getting the proper quotes and indents of the conversation...but couldn't get it too look right in preview....so
andy10917 wrote:
October 28th, 2017, 7:54 am
2.) Should I apply a selective triple Herbicide (Gordon's Trimec - Lawn Weed Killer) still this year? I have various broadleaf weeds in the Back and some in the Front. Note I fertilized, topdressed with Topsoil, and overseeded a small section of the front (60ft x 60 ft) as a trial area 30 days ago (No I did not take the front soil sample from this area). The KBG is coming up and approximately 1" tall in the overseeded area.
Open a different thread - this isn't a soil question, and we will use this as a reference thread for (maybe) years.
I have started a separate thread in the lawn renovation forum. viewtopic.php?f=13&t=23493. I think you have already replied.....my posts are delayed to being reviewed (newbie I think)

andy10917 wrote:
October 28th, 2017, 7:54 am
3.) Should I do any applications of BLSC and/or Kelp Help yet this year...or too late/no reason to do so?
It won't hurt to get started - what is the goal?
The goal would be to soften up the soil and improve its ability to let water, nutrients, and organic matter in (based on my reading of this forum). Am I interpreting the usage of these correctly? I just remember reading one of your posts/replies I think that said you can continue to apply these until the grass stops growing...and it hasn't yet, but is just about there.

andy10917 wrote:
October 28th, 2017, 7:54 am
1.) Am I best served by bringing in Topsoil or a lawn mix (Topsoil, Compost, Peat) and adding an inch or two..or more, or just topdress spring and fall for a few years with the rest of your recommended regimen? I understand if I add more than just topdressing I can kill off the existing grass (I wouldn't care in back, but the front seems to be workable??).
To make a real difference would take 3" over the 0.5 (or 1.0) acre area - that's not minor. I would think seriously about whether the budget has room for that, and then start a discussion thread on that topic.
I also think it would be too cost prohibitive so I think I can take adding 3" of topsoil to my size lawn off the table..
This leads me to the question then (please clarify if I need anther thread): To improve my soil condition the most, am I best served topdressing spring and fall with topsoil, compost, or a "seed mix" (Topsoil/Compost/Peat mixture)?

Thanks again for the help.

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andy10917
Posts: 29739
Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 10:48 pm
Location: NY (Lower Hudson Valley)
Grass Type: Emblem KBG (Front); Blueberry KBG Monostand (Back)
Lawn Size: 1 acre-2 acre
Level: Advanced

Re: DZRYZH Soil Test Fall 2017

Post by andy10917 » October 29th, 2017, 9:03 am

I hate to say it, but the BLSC and commercial products like it are good at fixing minor and moderate chemical problems, but situations like yours (no topsoil, structural issues, strong clay component) are often just too much to ask of something like BLSC. They're often more than can be corrected with topdressing too. I'd do what was in my original response plus BLSC and see what happens after a year or two. If it's still sparse/challenging, I fear it will be time to discuss major surgery.

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