Jon’s dirt don’t hurt.

[JonCraig]

Really appreciate you guys and all the help you give on this forum!

Zone 7a. Lawn is mix of TTTF & evil, hopefully eradicated one day Bermuda. Planning a fall overseed w/ TTTF.

Last fert was Milo @ bag rate in late March/early April, in case that matters.

Last lime application was ~5 years ago at... going off memory here... 10lbs/1k sqft(?) does that sound right?

Thank you in advance!

[JonCraig]

Just re-read the submission guidelines and realized I left out details.

20k sq feet. Trying to get TTTF Healthy this fall & spring (fall overseed will be big part of this), and start fighting the good fight against wild bermuda Fall of '19.

I do not have irrigation, but wouldn't be opposed to getting out the sprinklers in a drought. I mow generally weekly, no sooner than 5 days. 90% full sun.

Have been spraying with 3-way, triclopyr, and tenacity with good results on most everything other than the bermuda. Plan to do split apps of Dimension in the spring, plus blanket spray tenacity+acclaim+triclopyr for bermuda control. (Can't convince my wife that $500 for Pylex is worth it...)

[andy10917]

You've got ups and downs with that soil...

A TEC of just under 8 and OM numbers above 4% point to a soil that is a little too sandy to call a Loam, but it isn't terrible - the OM number indicates good but not great organic material in the soil.

In the cations, it's almost 100% Calcium that is short. Apply good calcitic lime (not dolomitic) at 9 lbs/K every 90 days of the growing season, for a long time.

In the anions, Phosphorus is quite short. We treat that by applying Starter Fertilizer as the primary Nitrogen/Phosphorus fertilizer monthly. Pick a good starter fertilize and post the NPK for rates.

The Iron needs serious help for best color. Apply Ferrous Sulfate at 2-3 lbs/K every 60 days, and/or Milorganite off-cycle from the Starter Fertilizer.

In the micronutrients, only Boron needs your attention - is that for 2018?

[JonCraig]

Thanks so much, Andy!

For the iron:
Milo is hard to find this season... Ringer is expensive... any alternatives? What about Ironite? I’ve never used it.

Will look into starter ferts... I believe my local co-op has some good (and affordable!) fert options. Hopefully they have calcitic lime as well. I will find out and report back.

As for boron, I have never messed with it. My other (non-Logan) test had it low as well. I did some searching here and read about people screwing it up and turning their yard into something resembling the surface of Mars.

What would you recommend?

I have just ordered all the stuff for BLSC and KH... put a dash of borax in with it?

Thank you again for your expertise!

[andy10917]

I did some searching here and read about people screwing it up and turning their yard into something resembling the surface of Mars.

No member here has done that. But we're really careful to keep that on a short leash.

The Iron needs serious help for best color. Apply Ferrous Sulfate at 2-3 lbs/K every 60 days, and/or Milorganite off-cycle from the Starter Fertilizer.

I have no secret sources.

Back to the Boron -- I'd do it and applying is simple. See the Micronutrient Appplication Guide.

[JonCraig]

I’m confused about the “calcareous pH 8.0 soil”... My pH is 5.6?

I’ll read up on iron application, also.

Thank you!

—JC

[andy10917]

I'm sorry - I was working on another member's post at the same time and confused them - I cleaned up the mess.

I don't like Ironite - the Iron is in a form that isn't readily useful. Read about FAS treatments or apply Ferrous Sulfate at 2-3 lbs/K every 60 days.

[JonCraig]

Looks like the only Calcitic Lime I can find is the Sta-Green at Lowe’s across town. $14 for 30 lbs. $93 per app for me. Yikes.

I can get dolomitic lime at $4.25 for 40 lbs... any chance I could use the dolomitic to adjust ph & add calcium through other means?

Local co-op didn’t have much for high-P... Best they had was 18-24-12, 35% “XCU” (which if I understood him correctly means 35% slow release) and 3% iron. $18 for 50lbs.

How much iron will that 3% be (depends on app rate of the fert, I guess...)? I’m thinking foliar iron apps are in my future, especially with Milo still scarce...

[TimmyG]

Looks like the only Calcitic Lime I can find is the Sta-Green at Lowe’s across town. $14 for 30 lbs. $93 per app for me. Yikes.

Across town? Have it shipped for free. Buy 5+, Get 10% Off. Definitely one of the least expensive calcitic lime options out there.

[andy10917]

It is highly likely that you're not doing a head-to-head comparison. Most good calcitic limes using the humate process go down at 9-10 lbs/K for the ""heavy rate". Most standard dolomitic limes go down at 40-50 lbs/K. You have to do the comparison by calculating cost per thousand sq ft ($/K). With the 10% off, I get $3.82/K for calcitic and $3.82 for dolomitic (assuming the same 10% discount). That's a wash...

There are two other reasons for the calcitic specification:

1. You have a large Calcium shortage and a tiny Magnesium shortage. Using dolomitic will throw the balance of Ca:Mg off (should be 6:1 - 10:1), and over time that make the soil "tight" and tough to work with.

2. It will take significantly longer to achieve results. Standard-process dolomitic lime can take 12-14 months to integrate with the soil. The new process for calcitic with humates takes 5-8 weeks to integrate, and we can make applications every 90 days.

[JonCraig]

Ah—my fault. Didn’t realize the massive app rate difference between the two types of lime!

How about the 18-24-12? Will that be a good choice? Or is the K still high?

And will that 3% iron make a dent? Or should I get the stuff for chelated iron spray?

[andy10917]

How about the 18-24-12? Will that be a good choice? Or is the K still high?

I'm not applauding. It has a lot of Potassium you don't need, and you'll hit the Phosphorus 1 lb/K limit well before the Nitrogen 1 lb/K/app limit. That means more Nitrogen needs to come from something else. Ugh. You can do better.

And will that 3% iron make a dent? Or should I get the stuff for chelated iron spray?

Is there a reason you hate the Ferrous Sulfate recommendation, that you're willing to triple your cost for chelated products you don't need? Your pH is 5.6. And for the 3% question, I'm not going to recommend 3% of a 18-24-12 product I wouldn't recommend overall.

[JonCraig]

For the fert, local Lowe’s has an 18-24-6 starter fert. That seems to be more in line and would half the (unnecessary) K. I can’t find a X-big-zero fert...

For the iron—apologies, I’ve never done it before and there’s mixed information floating around. What type of product would you suggest?

[andy10917]

You are a candidate for nice, halfway cheap Ferrous Sulfate. You have no complicating factors like a bad pH or anything. Just do it. If you can't locate it as Ferrous Sulfate, read the contents of Moss Killer - it's often just (overpriced) Ferrous Sulfate.

What city/town with shopping are you near?

[JonCraig]

I’m in the north Nashville, TN area. I thought “chelated” meant in liquid form? I’m inferring that it means somehow different chemically?

Looks like Lowe’s can ship a 20lbs 10% Fe granular (Moss Out). Bag rate (labeled for moss removal) is 4lbs per 1k, which would work out to be 0.4lbs of actual iron per 1k at $2.70/1k (obviously very reasonable)

Amazon has a 30% Fe granular whose bag rate (labeled for lawns) is 2lbs per 1k, which would work out to be .6 lbs per 1k at $5.37 per 1k (at the 0.6lbs actual rate) or $3.55 per 1k (if applied at the same 0.4lbs actual as the “Moss Out”) rate.

How much Iron should I be looking to apply per 1k?

[andy10917]

Jon, no intention to insult you, but you are trying to calculate things you're not ready to compare or calculate. I can apply Iron Oxide ("Rust") at any rate and it will do absolutely nothing. I'd recommend sticking with the Ferrous Sulfate and trust that we're looking out to protect your interests.

[JonCraig]

No insult taken. The moss killer is iron sulfate. And I love that it’s granular. I just don’t know what rate it should be applied at. (Hence the comparison with the one labeled for lawn and the diff app rates.) I really do appreciate you taking the time to offer your expertise. I should ask direct questions:

1) Is the 18-24-6 a suitable fert option?

2) At what rate and how often should I apply to TTTF lawn in transition zone?

3) Is Moss Killer (10% Ferrous sulfate) a suitable iron supplement option?

4) At what rate and how often should I apply?

Sorry for making it more complicated

[andy10917]

1) Is the 18-24-6 a suitable fert option?

2) At what rate and how often should I apply to TTTF lawn in transition zone?

I'd rather see you use the 23-23-6 Vigoro Starter at every Home Depot near you, but if you want to use 18-24-6 at 4 lbs/K monthly and add something else to lift the Nitrogen closer to 1 lb/K of Nitrogen, so be it.

3) Is Moss Killer (10% Ferrous sulfate) a suitable iron supplement option?
4) At what rate and how often should I apply?

Yes. The original amount I wrote up in my first recommendation was 2-3 lbs/K for any Ferrous Sulfate. I'm sticking with that.

[TimmyG]

Jon, see this post of mine linking some past discussions on sourcing ferrous sulfate. The links are broken due to changes in the forum since then, so I'll quote it here with updated links:

MikeFly, you may have luck finding feed grade ferrous sulfate (30% iron) at a local farm/feed/grain store, similar to what is shown in this thread. That would undoubtedly be your cheapest option.

You may be interested in the following thread, which also includes an online source for ferrous sulfate:
Iron Experiment

And then if you're bored and would be interested in reading someone else's attempt to optimize their ferrous sulfate purchase:
moss out ferrous sulfate price

[JonCraig]

Thank you Andy and Timmy!

Do I need to stagger the apps of iron and lime? One of Timmy’s links mentioned the lime binding the ferrous sulfate. Would that be the case under my conditions as well?

Thank you!