humate recommendation for JT

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__JT__
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humate recommendation for JT

Post by __JT__ » June 12th, 2020, 10:47 am

Could I get a recommendation for humates? I have sandy soil and low OM. Thanks in advance!

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MorpheusPA
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Re: humate recommendation for JT

Post by MorpheusPA » June 12th, 2020, 12:09 pm

Solid or spray? ETA: Are you also feeding organically?

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__JT__
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Re: humate recommendation for JT

Post by __JT__ » June 12th, 2020, 7:35 pm

I was thinking the pelletized product, The Andersons Humic DG.

Yes, for organic feeding, I apply Bay State @.44 N/M --- May 1st, June 1st, and I now I'm thinking July 1st (or last week of June) mixed with the Andersons? Then I apply a Bay State Sept 1st. So it ends up being 1.5-2 #s of organic N.

I also mix in 2#s of 0-0-50 monthly per soil test recommendations. And the June 1st, and Sep 1st mixes have .5#N/M of synthetic (with dimension) mixed in as well. So 1# of synthetic N not counting the final November Urea.

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Re: humate recommendation for JT

Post by MorpheusPA » June 12th, 2020, 10:41 pm

I think I'm going to be the Debbie Downer here. It's not that I disagree with the use of HA. It's not going to hurt, and if you want to go at the 40 lbs/A rate (1 pound per thousand), I have no objection. Do that every month if you like.

Now the other suggestions.

I know there's currently tests on. I've done my own, but I'm in different conditions where I started with a collapsed soil, rebuilt it much like you're doing now, but having to work rebuilding every single resource except for manganese, and built OM from practically undetectable to 6.5%. At the low end of the scale, HA probably would have helped. By the time I started adding it, I saw absolutely no effects--because soil resources were already coming up to "fair" or better.

So I'm going to give you an if-then-else. Given Andy's recommendations and looking at your soil test (which I'd actually call quite good; the "shortfalls" you have are not extreme and not what I'd consider major problems), I'd actually make some differing recommendations.

The price on the humates is fairly high and I'm...less than convinced...of the bang-buck ratio here in terms of what you're going to end up with in the soil. I'd almost rather see you do what I did in 2013. It was a bit back-breaking, and you don't need to do it to my level in any sense, and you may not be able to source what I did, but if you can...pour on the organics. The cheapest of these is usually cracked corn if you have a grain mill around you, and prices this year are pretty good.

Corn has the advantage of being a poor feeding (about 1-0.5-0.3), and containing a lot of fiber. Which means it won't overdo feeding on the lawn during the summer and you can dump it in June, July, and August with abandon at 50 pounds per thousand square feet if you want to, it won't stink when it decays (unless you really overdo it), it tends to leave a lot of residue when it decays (a solid ten percent should become humus), you'll attract birds, which means bird poo, and worms, and everything else that likes a good meal, and if it stops raining, it doesn't matter.

Do you want to mix in the humates at a rate of 1 to 2 pounds per thousand (the recommended rate)? Go for it. But these are very late-stage, completely decayed organics that aren't feeding the lawn much, if at all, and aren't working with the biology to cycle the soil.

Then, this fall, dump those leaves on the lawn and mow them in. Do you grow flowers or vegetables? Those dead bodies go on the lawn as well. Mow them in if you can. Can you import leaves from neighbors for the cost of cleaning their yards and blowing the leaves onto yours? Mow them in.

Cycling down to four to six inches does take quite a bit of time, and in very light soils (as yours is) high oxygen levels will always burn off organics at fast rates, so you'll constantly have to input at high rates. But an initial burst will certainly help, and those later-stage organics do hang around a lot longer.

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Re: humate recommendation for JT

Post by andy10917 » June 13th, 2020, 7:35 am

I get where Morph is going, and my four years of experimentation with Humates (both Humic Acid and Fulvic Acid) have taught me a lot about what does and doesn't work. 30% (conservatively) of the products out there flat out don't work, and 30%-40% of them give "so what" results. Only a few of them truly deliver on the promise that you read about.

I've also expressed frustration that in the 11+ years that I've been doing soil test interpretations here, precious few members have taken the recommendations for attention to OM supplementation seriously. I did decide, however, that I wouldn't be adding value to this community if I browbeat members about their practices. So, I added a change to my recommendations that leverages the properties of the best humate product I found and have added to all of my personal regimens.

JT, the best regimen that I have found is to add Humic DG at 2 lbs/K early in the season, and again at 2 lbs/K right before the hottest period of Summer (very late June is a good general rule). This leaves room for addiitional sources of humates from products like BLSC and lime/gypsum products that contain smaller amounts of humates.

Don't apply more than 5 lbs/K in a year, total. Don't expect instant results - they build over time and definitely work in several ways to make low OM/low TEC soils act better.

You obviously have missed the window for the "early application". In your case I would recommend 2 lbs/K at the end of June and again at the end of August. Then go forward with the early season and late June applications for 2021 and beyond.


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MorpheusPA
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Re: humate recommendation for JT

Post by MorpheusPA » June 13th, 2020, 1:30 pm

If he says it works, I'll take his word on it. :-) Andy, would that be something that would...well, let's face it, I have soil tuned like the London Symphony and soil OM of 6.5% in the lawn and 12% in the gardens, both of which don't really seem like they could do much better. Would it help or should I just continue to pour organics and let the armies of bacteria and battalions of worms work on it for me?

This year, given the quarantines and the fact that states may be lifting them...but I'm not for a long list of data-based reasons...so for a single year my organic additions are a little low, I'll be off on my organics and running at about a third of my normal rate on everything except for leaves.

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Re: humate recommendation for JT

Post by andy10917 » June 13th, 2020, 2:40 pm

If I were you, I'd get an 11-lb bag and try in in one 1K spot for a year.

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MorpheusPA
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Re: humate recommendation for JT

Post by MorpheusPA » June 13th, 2020, 2:49 pm

Thanks! Once I stop being a social drain and actually get a job or something, I'll give it a whirl. :-p

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__JT__
Posts: 170
Joined: May 10th, 2016, 9:25 pm
Location: SE Mass. zone 6A
Grass Type: Northern Mix (20% each of Midnight, Diva, and Everglade Kentucky bluegrass, and 20% Zodiac chewings fescue and 20% Fiesta 4 perennial ryegrass) with Bewitched mixed into shade
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
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Re: humate recommendation for JT

Post by __JT__ » June 14th, 2020, 10:38 am

I appreciate the advice/discussion. Thanks!

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Re: humate recommendation for JT

Post by Elevated_Allies » June 14th, 2020, 9:52 pm

andy10917 wrote:
June 13th, 2020, 7:35 am
I get where Morph is going, and my four years of experimentation with Humates (both Humic Acid and Fulvic Acid) have taught me a lot about what does and doesn't work. 30% (conservatively) of the products out there flat out don't work, and 30%-40% of them give "so what" results. Only a few of them truly deliver on the promise that you read about.

I've also expressed frustration that in the 11+ years that I've been doing soil test interpretations here, precious few members have taken the recommendations for attention to OM supplementation seriously. I did decide, however, that I wouldn't be adding value to this community if I browbeat members about their practices. So, I added a change to my recommendations that leverages the properties of the best humate product I found and have added to all of my personal regimens.

JT, the best regimen that I have found is to add Humic DG at 2 lbs/K early in the season, and again at 2 lbs/K right before the hottest period of Summer (very late June is a good general rule). This leaves room for addiitional sources of humates from products like BLSC and lime/gypsum products that contain smaller amounts of humates.

Don't apply more than 5 lbs/K in a year, total. Don't expect instant results - they build over time and definitely work in several ways to make low OM/low TEC soils act better.

You obviously have missed the window for the "early application". In your case I would recommend 2 lbs/K at the end of June and again at the end of August. Then go forward with the early season and late June applications for 2021 and beyond.
You mention adding cracked corn as an OM. I have access to spent cracked barley that was used for brewing beer. Its all organic matter. I would assume this would be good to add to your lawns as well....any thoughts?

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andy10917
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Re: humate recommendation for JT

Post by andy10917 » June 14th, 2020, 10:13 pm

Very good and often free.

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Re: humate recommendation for JT

Post by bpgreen » June 16th, 2020, 12:36 am

Spent brewing grains are great learn additions. They're actually higher proportionally in N than the base grains because the sugars have mostly been rinsed out.

Spread early and spread often.

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