bpgreen soil test 2020

Learn how improving your soil can lead to a better looking lawn
bpgreen
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Location: Utah (Wasatch Front)
Grass Type: Western, Streambank, Crested wheatgrass in front (with blue grama added in the heckstrips), sheep fescue in back; strawberry clovetr in both
Lawn Size: 3000-5000
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bpgreen soil test 2020

Post by bpgreen » July 16th, 2020, 11:41 pm

My lawn is about 4000 sq ft (Zillow says it's closer to 5000, even after accounting for the house; maybe I mi-smeasured, or maybe I'm also subracting things like the garden, sidewalks, driveway, etc). The garden is about 125 sq ft. I walked it off and planed to take actual measurements, but forgot. I'll take actual measurements before applying any amendments.

My house was built in 1988 and there was one prior owner. I bought it in 1996. Before that, it was either farmland, a horse pasture, or a swamp. But whatever was on the surface before was undoubtedly stripped away and replaced with with whatever fill dirt they could find. I'm reasonably certain there's construction debris buried not too far beneath the surface in several spots.

The prior owner bagged clippings and leaves. He sometimes dumped the clippings on the garden, but I think he just did it because it was convenient. I think he told me that he bought some "topsoil" for the garden.

I have mulch mowed since I bought the house. I bagged leaves the first couple of years because my daughter had seen pictures of kids jumping in piles of leaves and wanted to do it. I think I added those to the compost pile, but I couldn't guarantee it. Since then, I've mulched leaves from a large maple tree, a large cherry tree, and a few small aspen weeds whenever possible (we get canyon winds--sustained winds of 90 MPH with gusts over 120; if we get canyon winds, there are no leaves to mulch). I mulched OPL a couple of times, but stopped because too many bags had too much other than leaves.

I was bedridden one summer and unable to mow, so I hired it done. I asked him to raise his mower deck and also asked him not to bag the clippings. I also made an offhand comment that he could dump other clippings on my garden since I wouldn't be doing anything in it that year. He dumped them until they got to about 6 ft high, at which point, my then (now ex) wife complained about the smell and made him stop. If I hadn't been bedridden, I could have added "browns" but if I hadn't been bedridden, I would've been mowing my own lawn.

For several years, I used ammonium sulfate (21-0-0), mostly because a neighbor had gotten a soil test from the extension service and they told him that he only needed to use Nitrogen fertilizer. I used Ringer once, then switched to UCG from Starbucks. As I transitioned to more native grasses, I stopped using even that. I have used a bulb augur every few years to create holes to bury soil sulfur around the tree line in an attempt to keep a silver maple (one of the worst choices for this area) to keep from being completely yellow. I did not sample from anything near where I did that.

When I started doing partial mash (and later, all grain beer brewing), I would add the spent grains to the lawn, the garden, or the compost pile, depending on whatever I was deciding to do.

Since the natives have become dominant (enough), I rarely mow from about mid June to late September. So I'm not getting as many clippings. But the native grasses have *A LOT* more root mass.

When I bought the house, the soil (even in the garden) was yellow. I was surprised to find the lawn soil a light brown at the 6 inch depth. I never did the jar test, but a long time ago, I did a "ribbon test" that involved taking a small ball of soil and seeing if you could turn it into a ribbon of x inches. If so, you had clay. I think I made a ribbon of twice the size they expected. I know 3.47% OM isn't ideal, but I'm VERY pleased that it's that high. It probably started out close to 1% (so that means about a .1% increase per year, which I think is acceptable).


Image

If that image isn't clear, I can upload the original to a website I own.

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ken-n-nancy
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Re: bpgreen soil test 2020

Post by ken-n-nancy » July 17th, 2020, 7:51 am

bpgreen, I just want to say a big THANKS for posting the history of your lawn with this soil test. I've appreciated and enjoyed reading your recommendations on the forum since my first days as a member on the site (6 years ago today, actually) and it has been nice to hear a little about your lawn saga. Thanks!

Oh, and I'm no soil expert, but I think that's the highest TEC I've ever seen in any soil test here -- ever. Hearing about the 6' tall pile of grass clippings (presumably from many other lawns of the mower guy's business) helps explain why you have excellent OM in the garden.

In any case, thanks for being on the site, and thanks for sharing the soil test!

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andy10917
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Re: bpgreen soil test 2020

Post by andy10917 » July 17th, 2020, 8:45 am

BP, of all people that I want to help, you're near the top of the list - so I hate having to dump this decision on you.

That's clearly a calcareous soil - so much so that I'm not sure that guessing at how much to guesstimate what's going on would be helpful to you. I can do it, but I wouldn't recommend guessing. If the budget will handle it, call Logan Labs and ask them to re-run the test as an Ammonium Acetate (pH 8.2) test.

If you do, please ask them also to print out the report at the 4" depth.

Let me know whether you want me to guess, or if the test will be re-run. A BPGREEN test gets extra attention.

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MorpheusPA
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Re: bpgreen soil test 2020

Post by MorpheusPA » July 17th, 2020, 11:22 am

Ditto and yeah. You could open a limestone quarry on that soil. Please ship 3 kilos of it to me, I need to grind it to make high-quality gesso... But nobody can mentally or mathematically back-shift numbers like that to anything reasonable to do the adjustments, it'd be a bit of a guess. 91 EC is the highest that I, personally, have ever seen.

bpgreen
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Location: Utah (Wasatch Front)
Grass Type: Western, Streambank, Crested wheatgrass in front (with blue grama added in the heckstrips), sheep fescue in back; strawberry clovetr in both
Lawn Size: 3000-5000
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Re: bpgreen soil test 2020

Post by bpgreen » July 18th, 2020, 12:15 am

I will definitely ask them to do the ammonium acetate test. No sense in making you guess. And no sense in doing it halfway.

Why do you want me to ask them to print out the report at the 4" depth? I sampled at 6" at your recommendation, so shouldn't they use 6" for the report?

I kind of wondered whether the soil here would be considered calcerous. Now I know. My guess is that this is true of most of Utah (maybe much of the intermountain west).

I'm only vaguely aware of what the TEC number means. I assume lower is better and the reason the numbers are so different is the high om in the garden.

I'm curious about the higher metal numbers in the garden. Are those likely due to concentration from the huge head pile? Do i need to be concerned about the aluminum?

Ken-n- Nancy, thanks for the kind words. You probably understand why I usually include a lot of caveats when I comment. My conditions are very different from almost everybody else's (even others in the intermountain west, since I have native grasses).


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andy10917
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Re: bpgreen soil test 2020

Post by andy10917 » July 18th, 2020, 9:23 am

Why do you want me to ask them to print out the report at the 4" depth? I sampled at 6" at your recommendation, so shouldn't they use 6" for the report?
I know that you did the tests at the 6" level, but since all of my spreadsheets are based on 4" depth numbers (95% of the work I do is lawn soil), it just saves me from making the conversions from 6" to 4". It is just math, and affects nothing. Actually, don't bother asking for 4" - I'd like you to see how the numbers will change when the Ammonium Acetate results come in, and I know you wouldn't be able to do the leap to 6"/4" conversions.
I'm only vaguely aware of what the TEC number means. I assume lower is better and the reason the numbers are so different is the high om in the garden.
Think of TEC as the ability of the soil to hold certain important nutrients (the cations). A TEC under 4 will hold almost nothing, and the nutrients will leach away reasonably quickly. Soils with a TEC of 8-15 are optimal. Above 15, things change, and the soil may not drain properly and get harder to work with. Sometimes, though, there is so much Calcium and/or Magnesium that some of it just lays there and isn't really part of the soil's "holding capability". When this happens, the TEC and some other numbers on the soil test show "shortages" that just plain aren't real - they're distortions of the testing process. The distortions are somewhat removed by using a different testing method - hence the request to repeat the test using Ammonium Acetate. So, No, it's not "lower is better" - it's "higher is better, but there is a problem with too much of a good thing".

BTW, you are not the winner of the "highest TEC ever" contest, with a TEC of 91. There was a member with a TEC around 125 back in 2011 or 2012. Watch that TEEC number drop when the AA test is done.
I'm curious about the higher metal numbers in the garden. Are those likely due to concentration from the huge head pile? Do i need to be concerned about the aluminum?
I assume you mean the "metals" in the trace elements ("Micro's). Yeah, they probably came from the concentrations in the decaying leaves. The levels are all at appropriate levels or low. Those are not there as tests of "heavy metals" or naything like that - these are levels of nutrients that are required for proper growth and photosynthesis. As far as the Aluminum goes, fuhgettaboutit. Aluminum is a problem for root growth at levels greater than 2000, in soils with pH levels down around 5. That's far, far, far from your scenario,

I look forward to seeing the AA test results - more when we see them...

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MorpheusPA
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Re: bpgreen soil test 2020

Post by MorpheusPA » July 18th, 2020, 1:24 pm

And we can certainly also tell you that neither of us are particularly concerned. Very high calcium levels are not a barrier to wonderful lawns. Grass will, quite literally, grow in finely-ground limestone with organic matter tossed in to hold some water. Or even without the OM, although I'd prefer that were there.

What do you grow in your gardens? I saw the size (125 sq ft) but not the contents. It'll end up mattering, really, only in terms of the phosphorus levels. We're not going to influence pH very much over geological time...

bpgreen
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Re: bpgreen soil test 2020

Post by bpgreen » July 18th, 2020, 3:35 pm

I used to grow (or try to grow) tomatoes and jalapenos. And sometimes garlic. Last year (maybe the year before) I only got one tomato and two peppers (or the other way around) so I decided to give up on those and I forgot to get any garlic in last fall.

Last year or the year before I planted a couple of blackberry bushes along the fence and they've pretty much taken over (which isn't really a bad thing).

Keep in mind that for the lawn, I'm more interested in getting things optimal for the hops and a couple of fruit trees (2 really small plum trees and a huge cherry tree). The birds usually get the cherries before I do, but sometimes I get lucky and time it right. The native grasses should do fine in just about any soil. They might suffer in an acidic soil, but I'm reasonably certain that I'll never have to be concerned about that. I knew the ph would be high, but I didn't realize it would be that high. At first I was surprised there wasn't a bigger difference in the garden with the extra organic matter, but then I remembered how the ph scale works and realized a drop of .7 is pretty significant.

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MorpheusPA
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Re: bpgreen soil test 2020

Post by MorpheusPA » July 20th, 2020, 11:51 am

So a bit of this, a bit of that. Nothing that's particularly phosphorus-concerned, in other words. We're cool. :-)

bpgreen
Posts: 3874
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Location: Utah (Wasatch Front)
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Re: bpgreen soil test 2020

Post by bpgreen » July 21st, 2020, 7:55 pm

To clarify, I think I'm going to just let the blackberries take over, since they seem intent on doing so, anyway, but if I can find an area this fall where I can plant some garlic, I may do that.

Here's the ammonium acetate version of the test:

Image

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andy10917
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Re: bpgreen soil test 2020

Post by andy10917 » July 21st, 2020, 8:28 pm

OK, so let's be clear - the lawn area is where the Hops are, and the garlic is going to go into the garden?

bpgreen
Posts: 3874
Joined: January 3rd, 2009, 2:28 am
Location: Utah (Wasatch Front)
Grass Type: Western, Streambank, Crested wheatgrass in front (with blue grama added in the heckstrips), sheep fescue in back; strawberry clovetr in both
Lawn Size: 3000-5000
Level: Experienced

Re: bpgreen soil test 2020

Post by bpgreen » July 21st, 2020, 10:51 pm

andy10917 wrote:
July 21st, 2020, 8:28 pm
OK, so let's be clear - the lawn area is where the Hops are, and the garlic is going to go into the garden?
Correct. The hops are in the lawn. I didn't sample near the hops, but if I should do that, i can do that next year. As an aside, although most of my hops are standard varieties (centennial, cascade, nugget, people, comet, hallertauer), I also have a variety that's native to the southwest (neomexicanus--neo1).

My lawn is a mixture of northern mix and native grasses. The northern mix grasses were mostly planted when the house was built. It was probably a standard contractor mix. I overseeded with big box "drought tolerant" mixes that were probably mostly k31 before starting to plant natives about 15-20 years ago.

The garden is mostly blackberries, but if I can find room this fall, I'll plant garlic. If I can't find room for the garlic, I won't be too upset letting the blackberries take over.

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andy10917
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Re: bpgreen soil test 2020

Post by andy10917 » July 21st, 2020, 11:28 pm

OK - too late to start tonight. I'll do it tomorrow.

bpgreen
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Re: bpgreen soil test 2020

Post by bpgreen » July 22nd, 2020, 12:11 am

No rush.

If I'm low on boron, I'm covered, unless there's an expiration date. There's an open box and an unopened box of 20 mule team in my laundry room. I guess there's a laundry use for boron that my ex wife knew. They must be over 10 years old.

I'll need to buy anything else.

I'm also willing to be a calcerous humic experimenter. If you want me to do that, I'll have more questions for you.

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andy10917
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Re: bpgreen soil test 2020

Post by andy10917 » July 22nd, 2020, 9:39 pm

Alrighty then...

The AA test shows a much clearer picture - and look at those TEC's line up. You've got a soil that's a bit on the heavy side - no great shakes - it should hold nutrients well, as long as it doesn't puddle water after a rain. The OM% in the lawn/hops area is mediocre, and the OM in the garden area is glorious. For a lawn/hops area, I'd topdress with compost or peat moss on the root area of the hops reasonably lightly every 60 days.

For a native grasses lawn, I'd let you choose the frequency of fertilization, but not more than once every two months. Use a balanced fertilizer like 10-10-10 or 19-19-19 -- it will supply N, P and K all of which are low in the lawn area. I'm sure that you know how to figure the app rate.

The Iron is low all around, but I suspect you don't want to get into high-maintenance situations. Let me know if I'm wrong.

In the Lawn/hops area, only Boron is short in the micro's. 3 tablespoons of Twenty Mules/K. Check the Micronutrient Application Guide for help.

In the Garden, the story is different but the area is limited. I'm glad you told me about the garlic because it likes soil that is different. First, you need to tell me whether you want a stronger, pungent garlic or a milder one - it is all about the soil. Yeah, the blackberries don't care.

Garlic likes a loose, friable soil, and that may be an issue with a heavier base. You could dig into the soil this year (keep topsoil and subsoil separate), and add a 6 cups of sawdust perback (mixed) per 100 sq ft when you put the topsoil back. Do not play with Iron near the garlic area. You may want to learn about alfalfa tea for the "green stage" of garlic. And don't let anyone convince you to try Gypsum or Elemental Sulfur for the garlic. There are reasons to avoid both in your garden. Also, Boron is NOT required in your garden area. For a little fertilization (if you'd like) apply small amounts of Ammonium Sulfate to the garden area.

Officially, the Humates/Calcareous Soil experiment is closed, but your area is so different I'm making an executive decision. After 10pm EDT this evening, you'll be able to see a Forum you've never seen before - acknowledge the invite when you see the posting invite from me.

bpgreen
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Re: bpgreen soil test 2020

Post by bpgreen » July 23rd, 2020, 1:21 am

after a rain
Not much danger on that quarter. Snow, yes. Rain? We got a few drops today. But point taken. When I bought the house, water started running off after about 5 minutes.

Will top dressing with spent grains be a reasonable substitute for peatmoss and compost?

For Utah, om in the mediocre range is fantastic. I've spent a few decades getting it to that point.

I've always used 21-0-0 because a neighbor got a soil test and told me that our soil was good except for N. I'll get some balanced fertilizer.

For the app rate, I'm assuming the target is 1 lb N per 1000 sq ft.

Everything I've read said that there's plenty of iron in the soil here, but it's not available. If that's not the case, I absolutely want to address that. Leaves should be green, not yellow with green veins. I always though that was due to the ph of the soil.

For ther garlic, pungent is better. But I'm not entirely sure I'll have space for it. Blackberries are almost as aggressive as voles. The garden soil is pretty loose and friable (or maybe I've just gotten used to the really awful soil elsewhere).

This is somewhat embarrassing, but since I haven't used a chemical fertilizer in so long, better safe than sorry. When I use something like 10-10-10, I should water that night, right? And I should only fertilizer when the grass is growing.

I will probably not fertilize until September. I may fertilize one more time this year. Then maybe once next spring.

Should i add 3 T boron for each of those?

bpgreen
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Joined: January 3rd, 2009, 2:28 am
Location: Utah (Wasatch Front)
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Lawn Size: 3000-5000
Level: Experienced

Re: bpgreen soil test 2020

Post by bpgreen » July 23rd, 2020, 10:51 pm

I just eyeballed the garden to get the 125 sq ft. I took a tape measure to it today and I was way off. It's only about 82 sq ft.

I think Zillow was closer on my lawn size than my earlier calculations. My lawn is close to 5000 sq ft. I'm on a cul de sac, so part of my lawn is weirdly shaped. Rather than try to figure out a formula for the curve and try to remember calculus that I haven't used in more than 40 years, I picked a spot, called it a triangle, and used that as an estimate.

bpgreen
Posts: 3874
Joined: January 3rd, 2009, 2:28 am
Location: Utah (Wasatch Front)
Grass Type: Western, Streambank, Crested wheatgrass in front (with blue grama added in the heckstrips), sheep fescue in back; strawberry clovetr in both
Lawn Size: 3000-5000
Level: Experienced

Re: bpgreen soil test 2020

Post by bpgreen » July 23rd, 2020, 11:13 pm

I've got some soil sulfur that I've buried in holes around the drip line of my maple. I haven't done it in a few years (and probably should have this year). Should I keep that and use it that way this fall, or will that mess with the other things you're having me do?

I've also got some encap fast acting iron (I'd pour some into the holes with the sulfur to magnify the results). 11% calcium, 31% sulfur, 9.9% iron. I probably have about 10 lbs of that. There's more information on the bag and I can provide that if it's useful.

Will this help with my low iron, or is the extra calcium a problem?

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andy10917
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Re: bpgreen soil test 2020

Post by andy10917 » July 24th, 2020, 6:53 am

The difference between the standard test you ran and the AA Test is exactly how much Calcium you have that is not part of the soil solution, but is sitting there waiting for an opportunity to become part of the soil solution. When that is tons (and yours is), another few lb is a drop in the bucket.

Elemental Sulfur is a very strange thing. In conditions when the soil temperature is high, it can acidify very locally but goes through a conversion where it becomes Sulfuric Acid. When the soil isn't very warm, it doesn't happen. This can cause a Yo-Yo effect of up-and-down pH conditions. Whether that is helpful or harmful to a Maple in your area is probably better asked of an arborist in your area. For lawns it is not helpful.

The only way to get more Iron to the lawn at your pH is through foliar FAS applications, but they need to be applied every 3 weeks or so. Added Iron to the soil becomes unavailable to plants of any type almost immediately upon contact.

Avoid Iron apps near where you will be trying to grow the garlic - Iron and garlic are not good friends.

bpgreen
Posts: 3874
Joined: January 3rd, 2009, 2:28 am
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Re: bpgreen soil test 2020

Post by bpgreen » July 24th, 2020, 6:46 pm

The place where I bought the soil sulfur had some really knowledgeable people who understood Utah growing conditions really well. Unfortunately, they closed a year or two ago. What they told me is much the same as what you told me about using sulfur on the lawn. It's pretty useless. For the tree, it's a different story. It's kind of tedious, but I use a bulb augur and drill holes around the drip line. I pour sulfur in the holes and fill them back in. That will acidification the soil enough in those small areas to keep the leaves green for 3-5 years.

I think I'll avoid the foliar sprays. I've done that to the maple in the past and if my timing is off, it causes serious burning.

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