New lawn w/ issues

Learn how improving your soil can lead to a better looking lawn
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andy10917
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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by andy10917 » May 15th, 2009, 12:39 am

JB didn't know it, but he created some nice diagnostic tests. In every landfill, there is a diamond. Dog-pee rings is the clue. Colonel Mustard, in the Pantry, with the Candle Holder. No, wait - Professor Plum, in the Study - oh, never mind.

bpgreen
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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by bpgreen » May 15th, 2009, 1:40 am

When I first saw the pictures, I thought fairy ring (a fungus) until you mentioned the dog. Then I suspected the dog.

Western Washington is pretty damp and rainy, with winters that don't get real cold and summers that don't get too hot, right?

It would really help to know what kind of grass you have. I think the usual suspects would be perennial rye and fine fescue (fine fescue actually encompasses several grasses with similar traits).

If the green spots are from dog urine, one of the biggest problems is probably a lack of nitrogen.

Andy--I'm curious about the experiment. It looks like you're adding N (in the ammonia) as well as Mg (from the epsom salts) and iron (and more, from the ironite). Would it make sense to do a couple of test plots to see which of these things is actually making the difference (didn't we see something similar with KOG's test)?

If you've got perennial rye, it won't fill in the bare/thin spots, so you'll need to overseed. If you have fine fescue and creeping red fescue is a good portion of that, it'll fill in as its health improves.

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swampdonkey
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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by swampdonkey » May 15th, 2009, 9:46 am

I believe that I still have some seed at home, but if not, it was purchased from a farm supply store nearby so I can stop by and see. If I recall correctly, it was a sun-n-shade mix. I'll get this info today.

I'm holding off a bit on the test plot until you all weigh in on if I should undertake more than one. I have a small dog-leg that measures about ~15' x 20 that would be a good site for any experiments.

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andy10917
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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by andy10917 » May 15th, 2009, 9:52 am

Andy--I'm curious about the experiment. It looks like you're adding N (in the ammonia) as well as Mg (from the epsom salts) and iron (and more, from the ironite). Would it make sense to do a couple of test plots to see which of these things is actually making the difference (didn't we see something similar with KOG's test)?
Once I saw the pictures, I jumped in with both feet - "emergency intervention" time. That looks like a complete collapse of the soil given Swampdonkey's pictures from last year. I had no idea when I started with him on another forum (a newb forum) that this was anything more than what he originally asked --- "help me get my lawn back in shape". Swampdonkey may win the May, 2009 award for understatement. :shock: Given that his lawn is 6,000 sq ft and completely visible from the road, I didn't want to use a completely scientific method - I want to stop the damage NOW. Summer is coming fast. A CEC of 7.7 points to a soil that gives up its nutrients easily, and the Seattle area has more-than-enough-rain-for-10-lawns to compound it. I'm thinking that the new lawn, the sandy soil and the rain stripped the soil. I want a quick confirmation of my suspicions is all.

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andy10917
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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by andy10917 » May 15th, 2009, 10:03 am

I'm holding off a bit on the test plot until you all weigh in on if I should undertake more than one.
Swampdonkey:

I'm using a few old Jerry Baker ideas that I worked into "diagnostic tests" to predict the performance of the fertilizer/Ironite (which will take 3 weeks to really take hold) in five to seven days. You don't have three weeks to find out that we missed the bus. If you want to do more than one plot to do a truly scientific experiment, fine - as long as it doesn't slow down the establishment of the one I outlined at all. I'd really recommend that you get that one I outlined done THIS EVENING.


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swampdonkey
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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by swampdonkey » May 15th, 2009, 10:19 am

Andy, I'll start your experiment today. Going to work a 1/2 day in order to give me time for this, to check on the grass seed I put down, and to spread the fertilizer.

Not sure if I mentioned it, but I contacted UMass as to why the micronutrients were not on my results. The exceedingly rude person on the other end said he'd look into. I don't expect much...

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MorpheusPA
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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by MorpheusPA » May 15th, 2009, 10:45 am

Taking a half day off work? Now that's dedication!

If the soil's stripped of one of the majors (nitrogen, say), at least replacing it is really, really easy. Iron's nearly as easy.

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swampdonkey
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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by swampdonkey » May 15th, 2009, 10:47 pm

Update:

I put down the starter fertilizer (16-16-16) the Milorganite and the liquid Ironite. Questions about this in a minute...

As for the test area (ammonia, dishwashing soap, epsom salts, water) I very nearly followed all the directions laid out by Andy. Yeah...almost. Instead of just adding the ironite to the test area, I also put down the Milorganite. Does this negate the test?

Questions:
The liquid ironite took well over an hour to shoot one bottle of that stuff. Is this normal?

I did not feel overly confident on how to ensure I'm spreading the correct about of fertilizer. I currently have a Scotts Standard Broadcast Spreader and need some basic info on how to select the correct setting. Example: I have ~6000sq ft of lawn and the 16-16-16 (15lb bags) says to use a setting of 7 on the spreader to obtain 5lbs/1000. So I figure that if I put in on 4 and do two passes I'd be around the 6lbs/1000sq ft suggested by you guys. (When I first planted the lawn it stated that you spread half the seed in one direction, half in the other. Is this technique used for fertilizer as well?) I still had a good amount remaining of the second bag after doing both passes. This make sense?? It was the same w/ the Milorganite in that it just didn't seem that clear.

Should I be considering a herbicide to control weeds at this time or hold off for now? There is a healthy amount of clover and broadleaf weeds. I've manually extracted a good number of them...but they'll be back.
bpgreen wrote:
Western Washington is pretty damp and rainy, with winters that don't get real cold and summers that don't get too hot, right?
We have a fair number of days below freezing and some snow here but it's not excessive. It does rain a good deal. The summers can be pretty warm, usually from June through August we have very little rain and temps can hold in the 90's for several days.
andy10917 wrote:I had no idea when I started with him on another forum that this was anything more than what he originally asked --- "help me get my lawn back in shape". Swampdonkey may win the May, 2009 award for understatement.
It was a serious case of denial. Like when you look in the mirror and tell yourself that you've hardly aged only to see a photo from a few years back.

Thanks again for all the comments. Many of us are learning a good deal from those of you willing to share your time and knowledge w/ us. :good:

-Scott-
Last edited by swampdonkey on May 16th, 2009, 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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andy10917
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Location: NY (Lower Hudson Valley)
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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by andy10917 » May 15th, 2009, 11:10 pm

Swampdonkey:
As for the test area (ammonia, dishwashing soap, epsom salts, water) I very nearly followed all the directions laid out by Andy. Yeah...almost. Instead of just adding the ironite to the test area, I also put down the Milorganite. Does this negate the test?
No problem. By the time the Milorganite kicks in, we will have long forgotten the Test Patch.
The liquid ironite took well over an hour to shoot one bottle of that stuff. Is this normal?
Ah, Ironite!!! I need three bottles to do my front lawn. For some reason, they always get about 3/4 empty and then clog. I toss them aside at that point and hook up another one. Then I cut the top off (it's sealed) and put the 1/4 full bottles into my hose-end sprayer and finish them off. I got so used to it that I forgot to mention it.
I did not feel overly confident on how to ensure I'm spreading the correct about of fertilizer. I currently have a Scotts Standard Broadcast Spreader and need some basic info on how to select the correct setting. Example: I have ~6000sq ft of lawn and the 16-16-16 (15lb bags) says to use a setting of 7 on the spreader to obtain 5lbs/1000. So I figure that if I put in on 4 and do two passes I'd be around the 6lbs/1000sq ft suggested by you guys. (When I first planted the lawn it stated that you spread half the seed in one direction, half in the other. Is this technique used for fertilizer as well?) I still had a good amount remaining of the second bag after doing both passes. This make sense?? It was the same w/ the Milorganite in that it just didn't seem that clear.
If you got the right amount fairly evenly over the square footage, don't sweat it. Spreaders always screw up. Live with it.
Should I be considering a herbicide to control weeds at this time or hold off for now? There is a healthy amount of clover and broadleaf weeds. I've manually extracted a good number of them...but they'll be back.
Two weeks after fertilizing is the sweet spot for killing weeds, if it isn't too hot. Spend part of the next two weeks identifying the weeds. Clover (and some weeds) need a very different weed killer than other weeds. Tell us what they are.

bpgreen
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Location: Utah (Wasatch Front)
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Lawn Size: 3000-5000
Level: Experienced

Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by bpgreen » May 16th, 2009, 12:06 am

Since you used the liquid ironite, you should see some fast results from that unless it was washed off fairly quickly. One word of warning is that you want to make sure you didn't get any on sidewalks or anything. It can leave a pretty permanent stain.

As for the spreader settings, I never trust the settings. Instead, I calculate the square footage of the lawn, then calculate the amount of fertilizer to use. I get that much fertilizer, set the spreader to about half as open as I think it should be (or less) and make two passes in different directions. If I have some left over, I keep going until it's all gone, trying to hit as much of the lawn as possible.

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swampdonkey
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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by swampdonkey » May 16th, 2009, 9:06 am

Stopped by the feed store where I initially purchased the seed. Here's the sun-n-shade mix I used: creeping red fescue, charger II perennial ryegrass, granite hard fescue, ringer perennial ryegrass, magic chewing fescue (each makes up nearly 20%).

-Scott-

bpgreen
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Lawn Size: 3000-5000
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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by bpgreen » May 16th, 2009, 6:21 pm

Those are all bunch grasses except for the creeping red fescue. Since it makes up a fairly small percentage of the total mix and since CRF doesn't spread as fast as KBG would, you may need to overseed again in the fall. If you can get things healthy enough this spring and summer, the CRF may fill in, but don't be too surprised if you need to seed again in the fall.

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swampdonkey
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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by swampdonkey » May 18th, 2009, 2:31 pm

andy10917 wrote: Two weeks after fertilizing is the sweet spot for killing weeds, if it isn't too hot. Spend part of the next two weeks identifying the weeds. Clover (and some weeds) need a very different weed killer than other weeds. Tell us what they are.
Are their resources to help in the identification of weeds? I'd say that there are 5-6 different ones which I'll photograph and hopefully find a site that I can compare the images w/.

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andy10917
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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by andy10917 » May 18th, 2009, 2:50 pm

Post the pictures (close-ups are best), and call your county cooperative extension and ask them for the link to the best weed identification guide (with pictures) for common weeds in Western Washington. The WSU guide was terrible, and pointed to the Rutgers (NJ) site. I know what NJ weeds look like.

Any change in the Test Patch?

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swampdonkey
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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by swampdonkey » May 18th, 2009, 5:23 pm

I'll photograph the weeds and look locally for assistance on identification.

Test patch: nothing noticeable as of yesterday. I'll check again today.

Also, after repeated calls/emails/faxes to the UMASS Soil Lab they finally sent me my full report which has more info. I'll post the entire results later today.

-Scott-

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swampdonkey
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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by swampdonkey » May 18th, 2009, 8:36 pm

As mentioned earlier, I received additional info that should have came w/ my soil test:
Image

Also, I took some photos of the local weed population. How depressing a task this was! :cry: Here is a link to them. I'll be trying to find some local resources to assist as well but if you are confident on any of them, please, let me know. You should be able to zoom in on the images for a closer look.
Weed Fest '09

Thanks... -Scott-

GaryCinChicago
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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by GaryCinChicago » May 18th, 2009, 9:51 pm

swampdonkey wrote: Also, I took some photos of the local weed population.
That would make a nice salad, I mean with the celery, dill and lettuce that I see growing, LOL!

Seriously, nothing there that an app of 2, 4D wouldn't put a hurting on.

bpgreen
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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by bpgreen » May 18th, 2009, 9:55 pm

I think weeds 1 and 2 are both Dutch White Clover. Weed 4 looks like it might be black medic. Weed 6 looks like Queen Ann's Lace (aka wild carrot).

All of the weeds in your photos will die with an application of a broadleaf weed killer (like 2,4D).

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MorpheusPA
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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by MorpheusPA » May 18th, 2009, 11:32 pm

Calling Andy...those Boron and Copper levels are deficient and I'm not 100% pleased by the Zinc level, either. We need another magic potion. Get crackin', Alchemist. :-)

I don't at all like those phosphorus levels, either, but we already went through that on page #1. If you note no improvement through the tests, that's also an indicator.

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andy10917
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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by andy10917 » May 19th, 2009, 12:41 am

I know, I know, I had an aquarium disaster tonight - main pump went out. I'll figure it out in the morning...

I hate Boron problems...

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