New lawn w/ issues

Learn how improving your soil can lead to a better looking lawn
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swampdonkey
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New lawn w/ issues

Post by swampdonkey » May 12th, 2009, 3:49 pm

I recently started a thread on another lawn forum site and Andy was kind enough to begin providing me w/ info and suggestions. His profile led me to this site and if you don't mind, I'd like to bring that thread here. On the initial site there was only Andy responding so perhaps I can take some weight off of him by seeing what everyone else has to say.

Any preference on how I relay the initial thread? I can either paste the text here or provide the URL.

Thanks!

-Scott-

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andy10917
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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by andy10917 » May 12th, 2009, 5:39 pm

Scott:

Hi, and welcome!! Glad you decided to join us.

It will take you forever to copy over that post - its full of quotes and stuff. And I wouldn't link back to there either (bad netiquete). Just summarize where we were at over on "that forum". This forum is like that one (its all quick answers to newbies over there). Here things get lots of well-thought-out answers, and you'll get a lot of real expertise. If it gets too deep on anything just ask for an english translation. Or do what David does when Morph and I get into a chemistry discussion - post a :dizzy:

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swampdonkey
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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by swampdonkey » May 13th, 2009, 10:42 am

I've tried to condense the initial thread yet retain the pertinent info. If you need clarification please let me know. I've used 'ME' and 'ANDY' to show who said what. Here goes...

I recently had my lawn tested and in the report received they suggested a fertilizer program to assist in getting my lawn back in shape. One of the suggestions was for 5 lbs/1000 of a 20-3-12 fertilizer. What if you cannot locate a fertilizer in a certain ration, is there a way of creating it? I've not been able to find a 20-3-12 and am not sure how to proceed.
Location: Washington state, Puget Sound/Seattle area
Watering: Never during the months of ~Sept - Mid May-ish. During the summer I'll water ~2x/ week.
Square footage: ~6000
Soil Test Results:
Nutrient Levels: PPM
Phosphorus: 4
Potassium: 92
Calcium: 475
Magnesium: 76
Soil pH: 5.8
Buffer pH: 6.4
micronutrient levels: normal
cation exch cap: 7.6 meq/100g
percent base saturation: k=2.5 Mg=6.4 Ca=24.4
extractable aluminum 158 ppm

Recommendations from the lab: apply 66lb/1000 calcitic limestone in split application; Apply a 20-3-12 fertilizer 5lbs/1000 in late April, late June, very late Aug. Apply superphosphate (0-20-0) 5lbs/1000 very late Aug. They also provide info for the following year.

A few notes about the lawn. The area was largely bare w/ weeds for about 2 years following having our house being built. Last spring I killed that which was growing, tilled and leveled, put down about 3-5" topsoil, seeded, spread out some peat on top, then watered daily. A nice full lawn came in. Then in mid/late summer I noticed yellow areas that spread over time. I should have looked into it then however I put it off until this spring when I had the soil tested through U Mass.

I've already put down about 30lbs/1000 lime three weeks back, and at the end of last summer I did put down a fertilizer but cannot tell you which. It basically went down like this: visited a lawn/garden center and asked for something to help make my lawn happier over the coming winter. Sorry I don't have more info. Didn't know any better at the time.

Watering: we receive a lot of rain in this area, however, there is usually about a three month period where rainfall diminishes substantially. During this period I'll water the lawn ~2x per week. The watering is undertaken w/ an impact sprinkler which I move around the lawn to get full coverage. I'll leave it on an area for 30 min to an hour or more until it seems well saturated. Andy informed me about the ¾ - 1” watering and the tuna can trick on how to measure the amount.

ANDY
A CEC (Cation Exchange Capacity) of 7.6 is pretty low, and indicates a sandier soil that doesn't hold onto nutrients all that well. That means that whatever you add to the soil is going to leach out in a few months. So, you've got to have a two-prong approach: save the existing grass and (longer-term) fix the soil.

If it was me and I was shopping at the big-box stores, this is what I'd do: I'd get a bag of Lesco Starter Fertilizer. I'd also get a bag of Milorganite (4% slow Iron) and a bottle of liquid Ironite (quick Iron). Then put them down and wait for the soil test results. The Milorganite is very slow-release, so it shouldn't overdo the Nitrogen. I'd also seriously consider starting a composting program for your lawn. Upping the organic matter will up the CEC, which will slow down the leaching of a sandy soil.

ME
The soil test did look into micronutrients, however, all that is stated regarding them was 'normal'.
You suggested the Lesco starter fertilizer, Milorganite and Ironite. Is this to replace the 20-3-12 suggestion noted on the soil test? (Note: Lesco products are not available in this part of the county. Is there a similar product or NPK number to look for?)
ANDY
Yes, and I'm looking for certain specific numbers. The "normal" that you got on micronutrients doesn't fit with the chlorosis ("yellowing"). I'm choosing to believe you instead of the test results. Tell me what brands of starter fertilizer are available around you and the NPK's.
ME
Here is what I could find locally for starter fertilizer. Let me know what you think:
Scotts Starter Fertilizer 20-27-5; Schultz Super 16-16-16 All Purpose Starter Fertilizer; Vigoro Ultra Turf Starter Fertilizer 20-27-5; Pennington Starter Fertilizer 18-24-6
ANDY
I'd use the 16-16-16 and the Milorganite at the same time. Then I'd overspray it with the Ironite liquid. Do that and let us know how it goes - in about 2 weeks. We'll wait a little while and then see what can be done about boosting that pH some.
ME
I've picked up the goods. Question: How many lbs/1000 of the 16-16-16 and Milorganite to put down? Should I keep w/ the initial results from the tests of 5lbs/1000sq ft? How would you calc that amount to put down?

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MorpheusPA
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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by MorpheusPA » May 13th, 2009, 11:21 am

Five per thousand of 16-16-16 would be about 0.8 lbs of resources (5/0.16). Personally, I'd use about 6 per thousand to get closer to a pound of each of N, P, and K, but the difference isn't all that important. Anything from 4 to 7 is completely acceptable. These do replace the recommendations that they gave you--Andy wants to bounce in more nutrients faster than they recommend. There's no issue with doing that.

Your phosphorus levels are low enough that I wouldn't even count the Milorganite into those numbers--just add it. It's a very slow release fertilizer anyway, and it's not going to do any damage. You can use any amount up to 20 pounds per thousand square feet. Ten is fine. Five is workable, if a little low.

The Milorganite, at 4% iron, will help your chlorosis as well. So will the Ironite--right now, I'm adding bags of the stuff as I came back with 1.4 ppm (more on that below).

I had my results done through U Mass Amherst as well, and got the same normal micronutrient reading. However, there was a bank of results just above the pH reading where they reported Boron, Manganese, Zinc, Copper, Iron, and Sulfur. If you got that section and it has the numbers, could you give us those as well? It'll really help with tuning a plan for you. In my case, although they reported things as normal, my boron was a bit low, and the iron levels were absolutely awful. The first is being corrected slowly now, the second is seeing a whole lot of stuff to work on it but will take a while.

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swampdonkey
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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by swampdonkey » May 13th, 2009, 12:10 pm

I'll recheck the info received from the report once home later on but I don't recall seeing any numbers for the micronutrients. I can post some images as well if this would be of use.

Cheers...-Scott-


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Dchall_San_Antonio
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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by Dchall_San_Antonio » May 13th, 2009, 12:21 pm

Pictures always help.

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andy10917
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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by andy10917 » May 13th, 2009, 12:55 pm

If I remember, the UMASS "basic" soil test doesn't have the micronutrients broken out, and the "full" test does. I think that you guys are comparing two different levels of the the same "report format". I was choosing to believe Swampdonkey's eyes instead of the word "normal" on the test.

Morph figured out pretty well where I was headed.

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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by eriocaulon » May 13th, 2009, 1:01 pm

Yup. UMASS' basic test does not list the micronutrients (including Fe).

Edit: my info is likely outdated. Looks like their basic test now includes all the good stuff.
Last edited by eriocaulon on May 13th, 2009, 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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swampdonkey
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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by swampdonkey » May 13th, 2009, 2:06 pm

for the sake of clarity, which is the test one should obtain:

UMass Soil Site

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andy10917
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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by andy10917 » May 13th, 2009, 3:25 pm

I've never ordered fom them (people forward their results to me), but I would think that it's the $9 "Standard Soil Test".

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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by cactus » May 13th, 2009, 3:29 pm

swampdonkey wrote:for the sake of clarity, which is the test one should obtain
I ordered the "Standard Soil Test w/ Organic Mater" (Test C on the order sheet - same as the $9 Standard Test, plus organics) for $13 from UMass.
It included results for B, Mn, Zn, Cu, Fe & S.

-Patrick

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andy10917
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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by andy10917 » May 13th, 2009, 4:01 pm

That's a good test at a reasonable price. The addition of the Organic Matter let's us know whether a poorer soil with a bad CEC could be improved with more OM, or whether it's already at a higher OM and we're running out of options.

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MorpheusPA
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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by MorpheusPA » May 13th, 2009, 5:27 pm

I got the Standard with OM, plus added the soluble salts because I was curious. Fortunate, that, as they're running midrange and I wouldn't want to send them up any further.

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swampdonkey
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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by swampdonkey » May 13th, 2009, 7:43 pm

I actually paid for the test that should have had the B, Mn, Zn, Cu, Fe & S on it. I've emailed the lab to see if they can provide the info. :club:

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swampdonkey
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Re: New lawn w/ issues...Now with images

Post by swampdonkey » May 14th, 2009, 8:33 pm

Below are some images. There is a small dog leg on the bottom right which is not seen. The main image has numbers showing approx where the close up images where shot. I was going to spread the products recommended earlier but thought I'd wait until the images were posted...just in case. Thanks! -Scott-

Images:
Lawn
Image

1
Image

2
Image

3
Image

4
Image

5
Image

This was the lawn three months after I planted it. Image is from June 2008. I've not looked at this image since last summer...wish I hadn't! :cry:
Image

I also uploaded full size images of what's above if better resolution is wanted. You should be able to view them all at:
Big Ones

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andy10917
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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by andy10917 » May 14th, 2009, 9:41 pm

Oh my God!

That is pretty dramatic. I had no idea that the decline was that serious.

Are those dog-pee spots that are the "rings of green"? That would tell me an enormous hint.

If they are, is there a 5' by 10' spot that we could perform a quick experiment? You'd need to "mark it off" somehow.

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swampdonkey
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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by swampdonkey » May 14th, 2009, 10:34 pm

Yeah, I'm pretty depressed after seeing that photo. It's my fault for not acting much sooner... :banghead:

We live in a semi-rural area on 10 acres, most of which is forested. The dog -a yellow lab- has seemed to prefer the forest to the yard...at least I thought he did. He never lays cable on the grass, but since he's not 'supervised' (i just let him out to take care of business) it is certainly a possibility he's greening up the lawn for me w/ urine.

I'm totally game for an experiment. Also, I was planning on spreading the fertilizer and ironite tomorrow or Sat. Want me to hold off?

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andy10917
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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by andy10917 » May 14th, 2009, 11:52 pm

No, don't hold off. But mark a 5 X 10 area that isn't visible from the road, but has "normal conditions" - not some hidden shady nook. Don't put the fertilizer on that section, but do hit it with the Ironite.

Then get your hose-end sprayer out. Put 1 oz of Household Ammonia (not sudsy, and no more than that), a teaspoon of dishwashing soap, and a half-teaspoon of Epsom Salts into it. Add 4 oz of water, and then spray it over the 5 X 10 area. Sprinkle it with about 3 gallons with water each day for 5 days. Tell us what happens.

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Dchall_San_Antonio
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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by Dchall_San_Antonio » May 15th, 2009, 12:06 am

You left out the beer, tobacco juice, and cola?

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Re: New lawn w/ issues

Post by MorpheusPA » May 15th, 2009, 12:35 am

And the Ragu. :-)

Agreed with Andy on this one. The ironite'll tell you if it's an iron or micronutrient shortage (since that has a lot of them), the ammonia will tell you if it's nitrogen short. Personally, I'd establish a third spot and do both--to see if it's short on both nitrogen AND iron. But that's just me.

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