Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Discuss how to and whether you should renovate your lawn
Green
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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by Green » March 12th, 2019, 1:59 pm

As far as the type of pre-M, maybe go with the option that's more effective against your target weeds, and/or less expensive, and let him work out the correct application rate based on when you plan to apply and when you plan to seed. As we talked about, Pendimethalin is slightly better against non-grassy (broadleaf) weeds, so that may sway your decision. If you go that route, I'm curious what your product label looks like, and what application rate he suggests, as I haven't had time to look up labels and think about it myself yet. His product is basically a pro version of the Scotts WeedEx (and likely costs less).

Regarding the disagreement about grub control timing between them and us, it may have to do with which AI they are talking about. Here in CT (not sure about your area in NY) the only one allowed for homeowners is Chlorantraniliprole (GrubEx/Acelepryn). There is also Imidacloprid (Merit) in some states, but the environmental impact and toxicity profile is slightly larger for it. Chlorantraniliprole should really be put down within the first month and a half after the soil becomes workable and the snow is gone, because it takes 60-90 days to incorporate into the soil. Imidacloprid is a lot faster-acting and has a much shorter residual action, so it can (and should) be put down later...possibly even as late as early July.

And yes, Andy and the soil team only use Logan Labs tests.

Green
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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by Green » March 12th, 2019, 2:06 pm

KnickLeDime wrote:
March 12th, 2019, 9:16 am
- Additionally he seemed to intimate that if I'm going to do any kind of ruffing up of the soil to seed, that physically disturbing the vapor barrier created Pendamethalin would further degrade it allowing for seeds to germinate.
Correct. I generally try not to do any raking once the pre-M is put down because of this.

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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by KnickLeDime » March 12th, 2019, 2:33 pm

Riverpilot wrote:
March 12th, 2019, 12:53 pm
First, good to hear about your store. I've only been to 4 stores, and they all have great people.

SiteOne used to be partially owned by John Deere, as well as Lesco. I believe Deere sold it's majority stake several years back, and that's when the name changed to SiteOne. Lesco and SiteOne are family.

I personally would still use Logan Labs and have Andy give you a attack plan.
It might be interesting, if you can afford it, to have SiteOne do a test as well. For me anyway, it's nice sometimes to be able to actually sit down with someone one on one and just have a conversation about things. :shrugs:

As for being supportive? Everything I've seen at my SiteOne is exactly that. Local knowledge, supportive, nice, not pushy etc.. they have HUGE customers that buys a lot of product etc.. lawn companies etc... so they know homeowners aren't going to buy a lot of product, but they also know that maybe you'll tell your neighbors, or friends, etc... bringing them in more business.

They'll also probably have a guy who knows a lot about irrigation. That's how I found out about who THEY would get to install an irrigation system in my lawn.
I'm gonna go with Logan Labs here very shortly and then share it here perhaps get a plan together and then depending on how that looks discuss with SiteOne. It's not that I don't trust the knowledge here it's that there is a certain advantage with SiteOne because I can source what I need from them hopefully that makes sense, I mean no disrespect. I'll see what Andy puts together and then see what I can get with SiteOne either exact or similar type products.

As for irrigation, I have roughly 32-35 (can't remember of the top of my head) sprinkler heads 8 zone system so I feel fairly comfortable with the coverage.

KnickLeDime
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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by KnickLeDime » March 12th, 2019, 2:48 pm

Green wrote:
March 12th, 2019, 1:59 pm
As far as the type of pre-M, maybe go with the option that's more effective against your target weeds, and/or less expensive, and let him work out the correct application rate based on when you plan to apply and when you plan to seed. As we talked about, Pendimethalin is slightly better against non-grassy (broadleaf) weeds, so that may sway your decision. If you go that route, I'm curious what your product label looks like, and what application rate he suggests, as I haven't had time to look up labels and think about it myself yet. His product is basically a pro version of the Scotts WeedEx (and likely costs less).

Regarding the disagreement about grub control timing between them and us, it may have to do with which AI they are talking about. Here in CT (not sure about your area in NY) the only one allowed for homeowners is Chlorantraniliprole (GrubEx/Acelepryn). There is also Imidacloprid (Merit) in some states, but the environmental impact and toxicity profile is slightly larger for it. Chlorantraniliprole should really be put down within the first month and a half after the soil becomes workable and the snow is gone, because it takes 60-90 days to incorporate into the soil. Imidacloprid is a lot faster-acting and has a much shorter residual action, so it can (and should) be put down later...possibly even as late as early July.

And yes, Andy and the soil team only use Logan Labs tests.
I've been here two summers, this will be the third. I had some but NOT A LOT of crabgrass and some clover this past summer. Weed control of existing weeds isn't a HUGE concern but I really want to keep up on it. The edges of property and either side of the driveway is where I had a bit more...speaking with SiteOne this morning he said that happens and advised to put a bit more Pre-M there, in areas of shallower soil. Once I buy the Pre-M i'll share a picture of the label as well as what application rate is worked out. BTW, you are absolutely correct, Pre-M 0-0-8 with Pendamethaline is $41 a bag...that's almost $20 bucks less then Scotts spring stuff. That to me is pretty wild...obviously I'll still need nutrients based on soil lab work but still...that IMO is cost effective. As I've previously said, cost is not an issue for me...provided it's spent intelligently hence my being here.

As for grub control, I don't recall him saying Imidacloprid but he did say Merit so that is probably what he was talking about and yes, he mentioned that he sometimes will put it down as late as July. Merit is not a restricted substance in NY so I can buy. I know I had previously contacted Scotts about GrubEx and was told for my area they recommend around Memorial Day. I'll speak to him about grub control again next time I go and solidify a control plan. Obviously due to the damage from last summer, insect control is my HIGHEST priority as I can't let repeat what happened last year.

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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by turf_toes » March 12th, 2019, 3:19 pm

I know I had previously contacted Scotts about GrubEx and was told for my area they recommend around Memorial Day. I'll speak to him about grub control again next time I go and solidify a control plan. Obviously due to the damage from last summer, insect control is my HIGHEST priority as I can't let repeat what happens
That advice is for the old formula (out of date by a couple years now).

The current active ingredient suggests an earlier application time. Don’t take my word (or anyone else’s). Just pick up a bag and read the label.


KnickLeDime
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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by KnickLeDime » March 12th, 2019, 3:48 pm

turf_toes wrote:
March 12th, 2019, 3:19 pm
I know I had previously contacted Scotts about GrubEx and was told for my area they recommend around Memorial Day. I'll speak to him about grub control again next time I go and solidify a control plan. Obviously due to the damage from last summer, insect control is my HIGHEST priority as I can't let repeat what happens
That advice is for the old formula (out of date by a couple years now).

The current active ingredient suggests an earlier application time. Don’t take my word (or anyone else’s). Just pick up a bag and read the label.
Understood, I hadn't realized the formulation had changed. My comment was about 2 years old

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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by Green » March 12th, 2019, 5:07 pm

There is no way to know how the soil testing methodologies or recommendations from Andy and SiteOne will or won't align, unless you try the SiteOne test also. The thing is, once you see how comprehensive Andy is compared to others (and Logan, too), you probably won't want to go with anything else. If you do two tests, you would want to take about 3-4 total cups of soil instead of 2 cups, mix thoroughly as usual, but then divide it in half so you're submitting the same soil to both labs.

I've noticed that with other soil testing services and different interpreters, they often only recommend minimum amounts of certain nutrients, don't necessarily try to save you money on products, and sometimes recommend things that are a bit out of balance.

Green
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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by Green » March 12th, 2019, 5:12 pm

KnickLeDime wrote:
March 12th, 2019, 3:48 pm
turf_toes wrote:
March 12th, 2019, 3:19 pm
I know I had previously contacted Scotts about GrubEx and was told for my area they recommend around Memorial Day.
That advice is for the old formula (out of date by a couple years now).
Understood, I hadn't realized the formulation had changed. My comment was about 2 years old
Halofenozide. It was pulled from the market some years ago. I'm not sure why; it wasn't any more toxic than Imidacloprid that I know of, and probably less so. It was a molting inhibitor. It was toxic to marine life, though (the current stuff, Chlorantraniliprole, may be as well; I don't remember).

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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by bpgreen » March 13th, 2019, 2:20 am

turf_toes wrote:
March 12th, 2019, 3:19 pm
I know I had previously contacted Scotts about GrubEx and was told for my area they recommend around Memorial Day. I'll speak to him about grub control again next time I go and solidify a control plan. Obviously due to the damage from last summer, insect control is my HIGHEST priority as I can't let repeat what happens
That advice is for the old formula (out of date by a couple years now).

The current active ingredient suggests an earlier application time. Don’t take my word (or anyone else’s). Just pick up a bag and read the label.
Read the label?

Who reads anything?

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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by KnickLeDime » March 13th, 2019, 4:43 pm

There's still a good amount of snow on the ground...Andy, I know you live somewhat close to me, when is a good time to sample next week or the week after sound about right?

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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by andy10917 » March 13th, 2019, 7:58 pm

I still have a fair amount of snow, but we're in Mud Season now - the ground is frozen except for the top inch. The snow melts and sits on top of the frozen soil and makes a half-frozen mud mess. I'm betting on two weeks.

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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by KnickLeDime » March 26th, 2019, 9:04 am

Weather really expecting to warm up starting tomorrow into the 50's and 60's. It appears it's about Go Time.

I'll collect the soil samples this weekend and get those out and then move forward with Pre-M 0-0-8 with Pendamethaline. Andy, that should be OK, correct?

One side question, before the full extent of damage was realized last year, I did try to overseed and threw down a large bag of seed that I got from Lowes. I know, dumb...I was flailing. Almost none of that seed came up...I'm assuming seed that went down didn't survive the winter so none of it will come up anyway so no worries about putting down Pre-M...correct?

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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by KnickLeDime » March 28th, 2019, 4:36 pm

Getting ready to collect samples...Logan labs says to sample 15 spots. Seems like a lot on 30k sqf. Should I do 15 or is less ok?

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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by andy10917 » March 30th, 2019, 10:49 am

The more samples you take, the better the quality of the averaging. You're going to mix them up well, and then send in about a cup for testing. Read the sticky thread at the top of the Soils forum, and use the depth we recommend (the inch between the 3"-4" depth (for grasses) instead of the 6" depth Logan says (for crops).

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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by KnickLeDime » April 10th, 2019, 2:23 pm

Green wrote:
March 12th, 2019, 1:59 pm
As far as the type of pre-M, maybe go with the option that's more effective against your target weeds, and/or less expensive, and let him work out the correct application rate based on when you plan to apply and when you plan to seed. As we talked about, Pendimethalin is slightly better against non-grassy (broadleaf) weeds, so that may sway your decision. If you go that route, I'm curious what your product label looks like, and what application rate he suggests, as I haven't had time to look up labels and think about it myself yet. His product is basically a pro version of the Scotts WeedEx (and likely costs less).

Regarding the disagreement about grub control timing between them and us, it may have to do with which AI they are talking about. Here in CT (not sure about your area in NY) the only one allowed for homeowners is Chlorantraniliprole (GrubEx/Acelepryn). There is also Imidacloprid (Merit) in some states, but the environmental impact and toxicity profile is slightly larger for it. Chlorantraniliprole should really be put down within the first month and a half after the soil becomes workable and the snow is gone, because it takes 60-90 days to incorporate into the soil. Imidacloprid is a lot faster-acting and has a much shorter residual action, so it can (and should) be put down later...possibly even as late as early July.

And yes, Andy and the soil team only use Logan Labs tests.
Green, here is the product label for Pre-M I got...

I'm hosting the .pdf off my one drive...hopefully not to hard to read, the label was super small font.

https://newcountry0-my.sharepoint.com/: ... w?e=pcbntx

Green
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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by Green » April 10th, 2019, 10:57 pm

Thank you! I can read it.

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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by KnickLeDime » April 16th, 2019, 10:08 am

Thinking ahead to August or so...and thinking about seed, doing reading and research.

Is there a good place online or maybe even SiteOne for good seed? What is a good seed? I'm not sure I'm ready for some of the really elite strands but what's a very good seed that I should consider and where can I potentially source?

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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by KnickLeDime » April 16th, 2019, 12:15 pm

Doing some research, reading etc. Really really like how Bewitched looks. Considering it's a Kentucky bluegrass any chance it will spread by rhizomes or do you need to let it grow. I'm thinking maybe it with repair and then over seeding for a while it will spread out and fill in any spots.

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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by Iowa Jim » April 16th, 2019, 5:23 pm

I would suggest to go to the NTEP trials and see what works best for your area. I have a combo of bewitched, mazama, and midnight that i have been happy with so that will give you a good starting place. I did my reno last fall. good luck

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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by andy10917 » April 16th, 2019, 6:55 pm

Bewitched is a beautiful cultivar and easy (for KBG, anyway) in NY. My son (SLYDER27 here) has a monostand of it, and it's very, very nice with above-average shade tolerance for KBG. Just make sure that you can get adequate water to it, and not think "it's too hot to work outside today" in July and August. And it needs to be fed, too - regularly.

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