LeftField11's Lawn Reno - 9,600 sq ft - Quack Battle

Discuss how to and whether you should renovate your lawn
User avatar
LeftField11
Posts: 200
Joined: July 25th, 2016, 10:30 am
Location: South Central PA - zone 6b
Grass Type: KBG - Bewitched, Blueberry, Prosperity
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Some Experience

LeftField11's Lawn Reno - 9,600 sq ft - Quack Battle

Post by LeftField11 » July 27th, 2016, 2:59 pm

I figured I should start my own thread to document this process. Complete newb here and every time I feel like I have a good handle on what needs to be done I find more information.
Location: South, Central PA, zone 6b
Area: Front and back yard, 9600 FS, 7200 sunny, 2400 shady
Seed: KBG mix (Bewitched, Blueberry, Prosperity) for sunny; KBG/FF mix (Bewitched 50%, 30% Intrigue, 20% Navigator II) for shady

The glypho with surfactant should be delivered today, planning to nuke it tomorrow.

Here's the current process and timeline I've laid out - this has been updated daily for the last week
Image

Here's my soil test report in the soil forum
http://aroundtheyard.com/soil/soil-test ... 20790.html
Last edited by LeftField11 on October 19th, 2016, 8:02 am, edited 17 times in total.

Dr. Drill
Posts: 117
Joined: July 19th, 2016, 4:16 pm
Location: Wesley Chapel, NC
Grass Type: TTTF-Cochise IV, LS1200, Falcon V -65%, Midnight KBG-25%, Spitfire HBG- 10%
Lawn Size: Not Specified
Level: Not Specified

Re: LeftField11's Lawn Renovation - 9,600 sq ft, zone 6b

Post by Dr. Drill » July 27th, 2016, 3:25 pm

I'm just a rookie but what's "BLSC/KH"?

edenl01
Posts: 591
Joined: July 16th, 2015, 9:12 pm
Location: Dubuque County, Iowa
Grass Type: Northern Mix
Lawn Size: Not Specified
Level: Not Specified

Re: LeftField11's Lawn Renovation - 9,600 sq ft, zone 6b

Post by edenl01 » July 27th, 2016, 3:28 pm

Bestlawn soil conditioner and kelp help plus humates.
The idea is the conditioner causes the soil to flocculate or stick together allowing room for water nutrients and OM. The kelp help is supposed the help break down organic mater to get into the spaces the conditioner creates. That's my understanding.

There is more on it in the faq or articles sections
[ Post made via iPhone ] Image
Last edited by edenl01 on July 27th, 2016, 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Dr. Drill
Posts: 117
Joined: July 19th, 2016, 4:16 pm
Location: Wesley Chapel, NC
Grass Type: TTTF-Cochise IV, LS1200, Falcon V -65%, Midnight KBG-25%, Spitfire HBG- 10%
Lawn Size: Not Specified
Level: Not Specified

Re: LeftField11's Lawn Renovation - 9,600 sq ft, zone 6b

Post by Dr. Drill » July 27th, 2016, 3:32 pm

edenl01 wrote:Bestlawn soil conditioner and kelp help plus humates.

[ Post made via iPhone ] Image
Where would I pick some of that up? I have really hard clay soil and I'm wondering if that would help before I grade and harley rake

edenl01
Posts: 591
Joined: July 16th, 2015, 9:12 pm
Location: Dubuque County, Iowa
Grass Type: Northern Mix
Lawn Size: Not Specified
Level: Not Specified

Re: LeftField11's Lawn Renovation - 9,600 sq ft, zone 6b

Post by edenl01 » July 27th, 2016, 3:35 pm

This is stuff you buy the ingredients for and mix yourself. It's basically close to a copy cat recipe of commercially marketed soil conditioners at a fraction of the price.

[ Post made via iPhone ] Image


Dr. Drill
Posts: 117
Joined: July 19th, 2016, 4:16 pm
Location: Wesley Chapel, NC
Grass Type: TTTF-Cochise IV, LS1200, Falcon V -65%, Midnight KBG-25%, Spitfire HBG- 10%
Lawn Size: Not Specified
Level: Not Specified

Re: LeftField11's Lawn Renovation - 9,600 sq ft, zone 6b

Post by Dr. Drill » July 27th, 2016, 3:35 pm

Ah gotcha, thanks for the tip

User avatar
LeftField11
Posts: 200
Joined: July 25th, 2016, 10:30 am
Location: South Central PA - zone 6b
Grass Type: KBG - Bewitched, Blueberry, Prosperity
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Some Experience

Re: LeftField11's Lawn Renovation - 9,600 sq ft, zone 6b

Post by LeftField11 » July 27th, 2016, 5:02 pm

Dr. Drill wrote:I'm just a rookie but what's "BLSC/KH"?
Rookie here too, I've been tracking these types of things down for a week. Here's the best / most concise resource for BLSC and KH that I've found. http://aroundtheyard.com/articles/154-s ... mates.html I ordered all the ingredients from the links provided and they shipped within 24 hours. Good luck.

User avatar
ken-n-nancy
Posts: 2571
Joined: July 17th, 2014, 3:58 pm
Location: Bedford, NH
Grass Type: Front: KBG (Bewitched+Prosperity); Side: Bewitched KBG; Back: Fine Fescue Blend + Prosperity
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Experienced

Re: LeftField11's Lawn Renovation - 9,600 sq ft, zone 6b

Post by ken-n-nancy » July 27th, 2016, 6:07 pm

LeftField11 wrote:Here's the current process and timeline I've laid out - this has been updated daily for the last week
Image
Generally looks like a good plan.

I do have a few comments / suggestions, though:

* I'm glad to see fill / level on the plan at about the same time as the kill. A lot of the benefit of fallowing is to eliminate weed seeds that come to the surface with disturbed soil or new fill. Accordingly, it's beneficial to do the fill / level step before the fallowing.

* It's good to mow the dead grass as low as your mower can handle as soon as the grass is clearly dead, bagging the clippings to keep from burying the soil under the grass clippings. You can see when to do this from many past renovation threads. (e.g. see our thread from last year. Typically, it's about 5-7 days after glyphosate. You don't want to wait too long to do this, or the grass will mat down and the mower won't lift it up to cut it. Be aware that this step will make you feel like Pig-Pen from Peanuts due to the amount of dust this step will generate. Image

* During the fallowing period after the grass is mostly dead, you want to be watering as if you were trying to get grass to grow. This means you'll want to water about 3-5 times a day for a short time during each watering. The goal is to keep the surface of the soil moist, but never water long enough to get any runoff or standing water. Depending upon how much water your irrigation system delivers, it may be only 5-10 minutes per watering. This also gives you a chance to refine your watering approach so that you can fine-tune your watering to minimize erosion and runoff for when you have actually sown seed.

* Power raking *after* the fallowing is all done will disturb the soil surface, countering a lot of the benefit of having fallowed. If the power raking step is really needed, you should do it right after the scalp mowing, so that the fallowing is after the power raking. If your soil is sufficiently non-compacted, you shouldn't need a power raking step. In all honesty, if you still have "stubble" remaining from the old grass, that's actually a good thing -- it will help prevent runoff and erosion, and also will help keep the soil surface moist -- kind of like free "grass seed accelerator" (e.g. PennMulch). I know that conventional wisdom is to get bare soil, but I learned from others on this site that did renovations into "dead grass stubble" seedbeds that it actually works better! You can see the seedbed of our most recent reno in this post -- the best germination with least erosion runoff was in the areas that still had old grass stubble.

* Weed seeds will be continuing to germinate throughout the whole process. I'd suggest the final glyphosate be the same day of sowing seed to minimize the germinating weeds that survive after the final glyphosate. In my most recent renovation, I applied the final glyphosate about 4 hours before seed-down, basically just giving the glyphosate enough time to dry. (Even that may not be strictly necessary -- I don't think glyphosate will harm just-sown seeds, but I haven't heard of folks doing one last glyphosate right after sowing the seed.)

* The biggest problem we had in our renovation last year was getting our seed down too late (9 September), particularly as we're at least 100 miles north of you. I'm glad to see your plan for a mid-August seed-down!

User avatar
LeftField11
Posts: 200
Joined: July 25th, 2016, 10:30 am
Location: South Central PA - zone 6b
Grass Type: KBG - Bewitched, Blueberry, Prosperity
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Some Experience

Re: LeftField11's Lawn Renovation - 9,600 sq ft, zone 6b

Post by LeftField11 » July 28th, 2016, 8:28 am

Ken-n-nancy, thank you for that detailed analysis of my plan, I truly appreciate it.

- Just yesterday I realized that I need to scalp +/- 5 days after the first nuke to avoid matting, I'll definitely add that to the plan, and thank you for reminding me. I'm not too worried about the dust, I ran a stump grinder for 6 hours last weekend - had to hose off in the yard before even going in the house.

- I am going to water during the fallowing period, I just bought four 3/4" hoses last night, buying sprinklers today. Like you said, this will give me a chance to refine my technique - figure out where to place the sprinklers, how long to run them. I also bought a backpack sprayer last night. Going to use the BLSC applications as an opportunity to refine my technique with that thing since it sounds like there isn't much danger of over applying BLSC.

- I would love to not have to power rake, and I am seeing lots of reno pics where people seeded over dead turf. Not having to rent another piece of equipment and run it all day long sounds great to me. One of the reasons I thought I needed to power rake was to help level some of the bumps and divots in the yard that I can't see, but I can feel when I walk over them. Should I just try to fill those with topsoil wherever I feel them? Would rolling the lawn after a couple applications of BLSC help even it out (I don't want to compact it too much and lose the benefit of the BLSC)?

- One more round of glypho sounds good to me, any weed I kill pre-grass-germination is a weed I don't have to deal with later.

- I'm torn between fallowing long enough and getting the seed in the ground early enough. I got a late start because up till last week I had been planning to plant around 15 Sep - that's conventional wisdom in this area for sowing run-of-the-mill seed. But now that I'm using elite KBG cultivars it's an entirely different game. At the end of the day I'm guessing it's more important to have the seed in the ground on time and get the right amount of growth before the first frost, so I shortened up my fallow period a little (3 weeks).

User avatar
ken-n-nancy
Posts: 2571
Joined: July 17th, 2014, 3:58 pm
Location: Bedford, NH
Grass Type: Front: KBG (Bewitched+Prosperity); Side: Bewitched KBG; Back: Fine Fescue Blend + Prosperity
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Experienced

Re: LeftField11's Lawn Renovation - 9,600 sq ft, zone 6b

Post by ken-n-nancy » July 28th, 2016, 9:55 am

LeftField11 wrote:I am going to water during the fallowing period, ... this will give me a chance to refine my technique - figure out where to place the sprinklers, how long to run them. I also bought a backpack sprayer last night. Going to use the BLSC applications as an opportunity to refine my technique with that thing since it sounds like there isn't much danger of over applying BLSC.
Sounds like an excellent plan on both counts.
LeftField11 wrote:I would love to not have to power rake... One of the reasons I thought I needed to power rake was to help level some of the bumps and divots in the yard that I can't see, but I can feel when I walk over them. Should I just try to fill those with topsoil wherever I feel them? Would rolling the lawn after a couple applications of BLSC help even it out (I don't want to compact it too much and lose the benefit of the BLSC)?
In my opinion, rolling doesn't really help much with smoothing out bumps and divots -- it just compacts the soil in what had been the high spots. After the scalping step, when there's mostly stubble left for grass, you'll be able to see the ground pretty well to see what is causing the bump / divot problem. Personally, my approach to leveling out bumps / divots is to use a flat shovel and "skim off" the soil from the high points and use that soil to fill in the low spots. I've had success with this approach and it doesn't involve bringing in new (different) soil. If you do this about 1 week into the fallowing, a lot of the old grass stubble will have thinned out, and the soil will be soft from the frequent watering. If there's a whole lot of filling-in to do, or you're bringing in a few yards of topsoil for other reasons (like filling in a big low area or swale, or ...) then you could use some of what is left over to fill in little divots. However, it's harder to really fill in little divots than one would think. The tendency is for the "fill dirt" to not be sufficiently settled, so you still end up with low spots in those places, just not as low as before...
LeftField11 wrote:I'm torn between fallowing long enough and getting the seed in the ground early enough.
My personal opinion is that if forced to choose, you'll be better off getting the seed down sooner than having extra fallowing and seed down later. The exception to this would be if you have a known hard-to-kill grassy weed (or grass) that you're trying to kill off, such as poa trivialis or bermuda grass. For most normal weeds, the combination of glyphosate just before seed-down and tenacity at seed-down will address most of the weed pressure for the first month. Level 1 and Level 2 weeds from the Triangle Approach really aren't much of a problem, as they can readily be dealt with after the lawn is mature enough to have been mowed a few times, which, if you get the seed down soon enough, can happen this fall. I've always been on the too-late side of renovations and haven't had sufficiently mature grass before winter, leaving me with more of a challenge in the spring.

User avatar
LeftField11
Posts: 200
Joined: July 25th, 2016, 10:30 am
Location: South Central PA - zone 6b
Grass Type: KBG - Bewitched, Blueberry, Prosperity
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Some Experience

Re: LeftField11's Lawn Renovation - 9,600 sq ft, zone 6b

Post by LeftField11 » July 29th, 2016, 7:28 am

So I've run into an issue that I knew I was going to have to deal with, but have been ignoring for a while. I live at the top of a hill and I know there is a vein of limestone under the rear portion of my backyard (it took 3 days of hammering with a jackhammer on a skid loader to excavate for our patio). The soil back there is still fairly deep in most places, and I dug out a couple big rocks yesterday, but I have 6-8 spots where I can see limestone poking out of the ground. I was hoping to say fck it and just see what the grass does around those area, but I don't think I can. Contemplating a jackhammer rental this weekend and working down to around 12" on those limestone spots.

Has anyone else had to do something like this? Any pointers? Is 12" deep enough?

User avatar
FrayedEnds
Posts: 254
Joined: September 11th, 2014, 2:06 pm
Location: WA
Grass Type: Grass
Lawn Size: Not Specified
Level: Not Specified

Re: LeftField11's Lawn Renovation - 9,600 sq ft, zone 6b

Post by FrayedEnds » July 29th, 2016, 10:03 am

ken-n-nancy wrote: I'd suggest the final glyphosate be the same day of sowing seed to minimize the germinating weeds that survive after the final glyphosate.
Ken-n-nancy always offer terrific advice. One word of caution with this method: be certain the glyphosate has dried. If you are sprinkling several times per day and you walk across the recently watered/still wet glyphosate it will stick to your shoes and kill anything else you walk on. I've made this mistake. Don't trudge into the neighbors lawn or anything else you don't plan to kill.
LeftField11 wrote: One of the reasons I thought I needed to power rake was to help level some of the bumps and divots in the yard that I can't see, but I can feel when I walk over them.
You'll be amazed how much these settle from all of the watering when you are getting your new seeds growing. Anything worm lump size or smaller will nearly disappear from the constant dampness that is required to establish seeds. I had the same concerns with my first reno. Fill/level anything bigger with some topsoil prior to fallowing, try to match what you already have when adding soil.
LeftField11 wrote:Has anyone else had to do something like this? Any pointers? Is 12" deep enough?
I helped our neighbors with this same process. We didn't go down to 12" but did get several huge rocks pulverized. I don't think we went much lower than 6-8" on them. It's a lot of work, but can be done.

Good luck, can't wait to see how it turns out.

User avatar
LeftField11
Posts: 200
Joined: July 25th, 2016, 10:30 am
Location: South Central PA - zone 6b
Grass Type: KBG - Bewitched, Blueberry, Prosperity
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Some Experience

Re: LeftField11's Lawn Renovation - 9,600 sq ft, zone 6b

Post by LeftField11 » July 29th, 2016, 2:40 pm

I guess I call today, Day 1. I've nuked front and back with glypho that included surfactant from Rural King. Here are Day 1 pics:

Front yard - sunny side
Image

Front yard - shady side
Image

Back yard - yes, that's corn growing, I guess the squirrels planted it
Image

Back yard 2
Image

Back yard 3 - gonna have to figure out what to do with the trampoline
Image

User avatar
LeftField11
Posts: 200
Joined: July 25th, 2016, 10:30 am
Location: South Central PA - zone 6b
Grass Type: KBG - Bewitched, Blueberry, Prosperity
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Some Experience

Re: LeftField11's Lawn Renovation - 9,600 sq ft, zone 6b

Post by LeftField11 » August 1st, 2016, 9:31 am

Dug limestone out this weekend. Maybe the most brutal job I've ever done. 9 hours total on the jackhammer from Fri-Sun, about 12 sections of limestone.

Image

Image

Image

LoneRanger
Posts: 2692
Joined: April 25th, 2014, 11:11 pm
Location: Macomb County Michigan
Grass Type: Front/Side - Emblem, Back - Panterra V
Lawn Size: Not Specified
Level: Not Specified

Re: LeftField11's Lawn Renovation - 9,600 sq ft, zone 6b

Post by LoneRanger » August 1st, 2016, 1:23 pm

Ahh the joys of buried treasure.

User avatar
LeftField11
Posts: 200
Joined: July 25th, 2016, 10:30 am
Location: South Central PA - zone 6b
Grass Type: KBG - Bewitched, Blueberry, Prosperity
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Some Experience

Re: LeftField11's Lawn Renovation - 9,600 sq ft, zone 6b

Post by LeftField11 » August 3rd, 2016, 9:08 am

Scalped the yard last night, 8/2. It looks like the first glypho application was pretty successful. I was a little worried when it didn't turn completely brown in 3 days, but it's looking pretty dead now (5 days).

My rotary mower was on the lowest setting and I was disappointed that it didn't scalp closer. This is my older, "crappy" mower (the better one is in the shop). You have to move the wheels to change the cut height, and there are only 3 positions for the wheels. I'm going to mod this mower with at least one more set of wheel holes so that I can get the cut another half inch or more lower. I'll try to get some pics today.

User avatar
LeftField11
Posts: 200
Joined: July 25th, 2016, 10:30 am
Location: South Central PA - zone 6b
Grass Type: KBG - Bewitched, Blueberry, Prosperity
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Some Experience

Re: LeftField11's Lawn Renovation - 9,600 sq ft - kill #2

Post by LeftField11 » August 6th, 2016, 6:06 am

Kill #1 - 7/29
Scalped - 8/2
Kill #2 - 8/5

Getting nice and toasty
Image

Image

Image

Image

User avatar
LeftField11
Posts: 200
Joined: July 25th, 2016, 10:30 am
Location: South Central PA - zone 6b
Grass Type: KBG - Bewitched, Blueberry, Prosperity
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Some Experience

Re: LeftField11's Lawn Renovation - 9,600 sq ft - kill #2

Post by LeftField11 » August 9th, 2016, 6:06 am

Modified my older mower last night with an extra low wheel hole for a final scalp. It worked better than I had expected, got a very tight scalp on the front yard, will do the back sometime today.
Image

Had to change my irrigation plan this weekend. I bought four oscillating Melnor sprinklers that were supposed to cover 3900 sq ft each, and planned to use two in front and two in back. Tested them out this weekend and they don't cover nearly enough area. My water pressure is good and I have 1/2" hoses, not sure why they don't perform better. One the other hand, I bought an $8 impact sprinkler to test and it covers way more than I expected. I'll be using 4 Rain Bird impact sprinklers in the back yard and 3 in the front yard. http://www.lowes.com/pd/Rain-Bird-Plast ... er/3104409 These sprinklers are also a bit more "customizable" when it comes to a couple narrow spots that I need to reach. I realize that impact sprinklers probably don't cover as evenly as the oscillating sprinklers, but I think they're definitely a better solution for my situation.

I'm behind the curve on fallowing, struggling with the decision of whether to go ahead and seed on my planned date (20 Aug) or push back a week to allow for a longer fallow.

User avatar
LeftField11
Posts: 200
Joined: July 25th, 2016, 10:30 am
Location: South Central PA - zone 6b
Grass Type: KBG - Bewitched, Blueberry, Prosperity
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Some Experience

Day -1 - Seed down tomorrow

Post by LeftField11 » August 16th, 2016, 8:29 pm

For some reason August 17th sounds a lot better to me than August 20th, so seed is going down tomorrow. I'll probably be out of bed at 5:30 AM and outside at first light. Really, I'm just going out of my mind waiting to get seed on the ground, I have to be done with it. I understand that I probably didn't fallow as long as what is optimal, but I'm hoping the Tenacity earns it's keep and helps me out there. Updated process timeline and pics. I decided to top-dress with peat moss (by hand) over the entire yard. Walmart has 2.2 cu ft bales for $3.50 right now, so it ended up being a no brainer.


Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

User avatar
ken-n-nancy
Posts: 2571
Joined: July 17th, 2014, 3:58 pm
Location: Bedford, NH
Grass Type: Front: KBG (Bewitched+Prosperity); Side: Bewitched KBG; Back: Fine Fescue Blend + Prosperity
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Experienced

Re: LeftField11's Lawn Renovation - 9,600 sq ft - ready to s

Post by ken-n-nancy » August 16th, 2016, 10:13 pm

Yeah, that all looks pretty dead! Good work!

Do you have your watering all planned out, as to where you need to position the sprinklers in order to get sufficient coverage, and a plan to get everything watered about 4 times a day?

Are the impact sprinklers giving you the coverage you need without excessive runoff?

(The problem I've seen in the past is that the impact sprinklers often result in pretty heavy watering within about a 2' radius of the sprinkler, sometimes resulting in runoff from around the base of the sprinkler while the bulk of the area being watered by the sprinkler hasn't received enough water yet. However, as long as the sprinkler is in a level area with well-drained soil, impact sprinklers can work pretty well.)

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests