Greenrebellions Grass Grow - Poa Annua Monostand

Discuss how to and whether you should renovate your lawn
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micvog
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Re: Greenrebellions Grass Grow - Poa Annua Monostand

Post by micvog » May 18th, 2017, 3:18 pm

Just throwing my experience out there since it was so similar... (similar geography, soil, timeline, 3rd party seeded a new establishment lawn, same source for the seed, similar outcome)

In the Fall of 2015 my new lawn establishment was compost seeded in early August with KBG seed from SSS ("SS1100"). My soil test indicated soil very similar to yours - deficient in P, K, low OM - and my results were very similar. I also live in a similar climate.

Your image titled "IMG_20170429_124641" could have been taken from my yard the following Spring. By July, 11 months later, I had put down 2.9#/K of N from bi-weekly apps of Milorganite but still no significant growth. I would mow my lawn but wouldn't cut anything. Fungus was spreading.

In mid-July I put down 20#/K of Alfalfa pellets... about 14 days later my lawn started growing. I can't say why, but my hunch is that it was the Alfalfa. If it were me in your situation, I would put down Alfalfa pellets for your next feeding, but I also wouldn't give up hope if the lawn didn't start growing for a few more months.

For the weeds - both dicot and monocot - I spot-sprayed using WBG+CG (went through 3 gallons) and my wife and I became such good friends with the Fiskars stand-up weed remover that Fiskars ended up replacing it since it was literally worn out, and my wife had to go to physical therapy from using the same foot/leg over and over.

This Spring we have our work cut out for us... but we have a lawn. My recommendation is to keep at it until you need to make a decision between "keeping on" or starting over.

greenrebellion
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Re: Greenrebellions Grass Grow - Poa Annua Monostand

Post by greenrebellion » May 19th, 2017, 12:18 pm

Thanks for everyone's comments and feedback. Certainly can take all the input, advice I can take at this point!

I have replies to people below, but I did want to quickly get back to Hoosier on the root question. I dug up an area of good grass (one of my few that is weed free) and I have about an inch of super thick dense "sod" like roots and then outside of that there are plenty of roots extending to about the 2 inch mark or even some beyond.

ezael wrote:
May 18th, 2017, 1:18 pm
Sounds like you had good success with the pots that you grew. Was this in the native soil or something else?
No, I grew it using some lawn starter soil.

HoosierLawnGnome wrote:
May 18th, 2017, 12:41 pm
Were I to re-renovate the areas that didn't take, I'd strip down to bare earth and top dress with peat moss, which is a sterile top dressing. You'll avoid anything the compost or hydroseed mulch may introduce.

And, like Paul mentioned - test an area out first so you know you can be successful.
Yes, I plan on nuking a small area this week, buying peat moss, and seeing if I can get good grass to take in that area. If I can, then I'll consider re-doing the entire yard.

Paul wrote:
May 18th, 2017, 1:41 pm
So a stupid question, but I will ask anyway - Did you actually see the Hydro seeding company use the grass seed you purchased? I'm assuming you purchased the seed and gave it to the Hydro seeding company.
I purchased the seed and left it on the front porch for him. And when I got home, 3/4 of the container of seed was gone (which was the amount I'd expected him to use. He seemed like a really good guy and had been in business for 20 years and done 3 other people's yards in my neighbordhood (literally saw him working on the other lots) and all those lots came up great. I'm not a perfect judge of character, but I'd be shocked if he scammed me.
ezael wrote:
May 18th, 2017, 2:18 pm
Couple more questions. On the first page you said you would apply 6oz/ acre rate in the hydro mix. Then a few posts later it says 8oz /acre. Did you supply the tenacity to the hydroseeder? Did they mix it in? If they did, are they familiar with dosing tenacity? Obviously 8oz is very different than 8oz/acre for 12k sqft.
The Hydroseeder had never used Tenacity before (usually used "Drive"). I was very careful to tell the hydroseed guy exactly how much tenacity to use and made him very well aware that the rate was per acre. And then the morning when he hydroseeded I left a note for him telling him the exact amount to use so again, I'd be surprised if it got messed up. We did 8 ounces / per acre rate.

micvog wrote:
May 18th, 2017, 3:18 pm
This Spring we have our work cut out for us... but we have a lawn. My recommendation is to keep at it until you need to make a decision between "keeping on" or starting over.
Unfortunately, the image you cited - "IMG_20170429_124641" - is by FAR the best looking area on my lot. If that is how the whole lot looked, I would have no interest in redoing it and would just try to work with what I have. Money is tight so redoing this lot makes me sick at this point but the weed density out there is off the charts. And since it appears to be primarily Poa Annua or Triv...the weed b gone type stuff won't do much. A more Representative picture is here - https://postimg.io/image/9x44x8xgv/ - with all the browning stuff being weeds.

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ezael
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Re: Greenrebellions Grass Grow - Poa Annua Monostand

Post by ezael » May 19th, 2017, 8:39 pm

I'm starting to lean towards you had a bad batch of compost but I wouldn't call it quits yet.

edenl01
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Re: Greenrebellions Grass Grow - Poa Annua Monostand

Post by edenl01 » May 22nd, 2017, 8:33 pm

Just wanted you to know you aren't the only one that got clobbered by the weeds in your April 29 pics. Only common denominator is seed vender. I sent some of The weeds that we have I sent off to Iowa State to get an id. I know this in no way helps you but I'm right there with you.

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Re: Greenrebellions Grass Grow - Poa Annua Monostand

Post by Sicride » May 22nd, 2017, 8:56 pm

Just happened to notice in the very last pic posted here that your neighbor has a pretty decent lawn, reasonably uniform color and then there is a yard just behind his that looks identical to yours. So it's possible to have a nice stand, take that as encouragement, somehow the two less than ideal lawns went wrong. Do you know of anything you have in common with that persons lawn care practices? Or what your immediate neighbor did differently than you?


greenrebellion
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Re: Greenrebellions Grass Grow - Poa Annua Monostand

Post by greenrebellion » May 24th, 2017, 8:27 am

I was walking through my lawn today and that fertilizer did something. The good grass that is interspersed throughout is super dark blue/green in color. Might be starting to show some signs of growing (in some areas) but if it is, it is still SLOW. Problem is, even if the good grass takes off at some point, how do I get rid of grassy weeds that dominate the stand when there aren't selective herbicides for Poa Annua/Trivialis (maxed out my applications of Tenacity last year and it did nothing).


edenl01 wrote:
May 22nd, 2017, 8:33 pm
Just wanted you to know you aren't the only one that got clobbered by the weeds in your April 29 pics. Only common denominator is seed vender. I sent some of The weeds that we have I sent off to Iowa State to get an id. I know this in no way helps you but I'm right there with you.
Thanks for your post, keep me in the loop when you get the results back.


Sicride wrote:
May 22nd, 2017, 8:56 pm
Just happened to notice in the very last pic posted here that your neighbor has a pretty decent lawn, reasonably uniform color and then there is a yard just behind his that looks identical to yours. So it's possible to have a nice stand, take that as encouragement, somehow the two less than ideal lawns went wrong. Do you know of anything you have in common with that persons lawn care practices? Or what your immediate neighbor did differently than you?
All my neighbors had it hydroseeded. The compost and the seed I used are the variables. Though again, doubtful it is the seed as my pots came in fine.

ligrass
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Re: Greenrebellions Grass Grow - Poa Annua Monostand

Post by ligrass » May 24th, 2017, 9:50 am

greenrebellion wrote:
May 24th, 2017, 8:27 am
I was walking through my lawn today and that fertilizer did something. The good grass that is interspersed throughout is super dark blue/green in color. Might be starting to show some signs of growing (in some areas) but if it is, it is still SLOW. Problem is, even if the good grass takes off at some point, how do I get rid of grassy weeds that dominate the stand when there aren't selective herbicides for Poa Annua/Trivialis (maxed out my applications of Tenacity last year and it did nothing).

Unless you water like a mad man, most of it's going to die or go dormant when your temps get consistently in the 80's. Whatever goes dormant (mostly Triv & perennial types of Poa A.) will likely come back late fall or next spring. Reassess in late July to see where you're at.

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Re: Greenrebellions Grass Grow - Poa Annua Monostand

Post by edenl01 » May 24th, 2017, 10:04 am

About that wacky looking weed we've got. I did get it sent out. I'm starting to think that it was seeds of that plant lying dormant in the soil just waiting for the right circumstances. My reasoning for that logic is that I've seen it in our neighborhood as we do our evening walks. I see it mostly in newly established lawns I'm talking within the last year or year and a half. I'm thinking we might just have to beat it down the best we can. I don't think there are any selective herbicides for it because it is most definitely a grass. I will let ya know what ISU comes up with.

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Re: Greenrebellions Grass Grow - Poa Annua Monostand

Post by greenrebellion » June 6th, 2017, 9:19 pm

I think I'm going to try to Reno this fall (assuming my test plot of KBG that I am starting this weekend appears to be growing by the time August rolls around). I am going to start prepping now as if I am going to reno with seed down by mid August and then if my test plot fails, I'll abort and go to an unknown plan B (2nd mortgage on the house and Sod?).

Trying to decide if I should plan to do this over one year or two as this will be a one man operation.

Is 12K possible to do with one person including spreading peat moss?...I would probably do 16 bales for 12K. Or should I do front/sides this year and then back yard next year which would break out to about 4K in year 1 and 8K in year 2.

Even if I can though, how will I ever overcome the millions of Poa/Triv seeds that are now in my soil?? I'll obviously fallow (and an EXTRA EXTRA EXTRA long one at that) but does Poa germinate in July/August if I keep soil moist?

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andy10917
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Re: Greenrebellions Grass Grow - Poa Annua Monostand

Post by andy10917 » June 6th, 2017, 9:38 pm

Too many questions for a single response! I'd do a couple of things - (1) put your name in the Class of 2017 Renovation Class, and (2) open a Reno thread in the Renovations Forum and ask many of these questions one at a time (PS: I see no showstoppers and have done a 16K mostly alone).

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Re: Greenrebellions Grass Grow - Poa Annua Monostand

Post by greenrebellion » June 23rd, 2017, 8:51 pm

So there are a couple of small areas in my 12K SF 2016 renovation where my KBG is growing rather than staying at a 0.5" height (going on nine months now)

One of those areas is in the shot below. This was an area where I dumped fertilizer by accident. You can see the burn ring in the middle and then the good KBG is growing gangbusters around the burn mark (along with plenty of weeds as well). Then you go just outside of that green circle (top left corner of the pic is a good example) and there is a bunch of 0.5" KBG again.

The other area where grass has established well...along the driveway and sidewalk where I sweep excess fertilizer.

Not sure if this is just an interesting anecdote or if anything of value can be drawn from this? I am clueless as to how I could possibly have a serious nutrition issue with my grass as I was dropping starter fertilizer in the early going and then weekly Urea last Fall and the grass never grew.

Image

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Re: Greenrebellions Grass Grow - Poa Annua Monostand

Post by greenrebellion » June 24th, 2017, 1:13 pm

Another data point. A few weeks back I had extra Urea in a cup after fertilizing some of my ornamental grass plants and I threw the extra Urea in the air so that it would land in the backyard grass area. After doing so, I realized there was more Urea left than I thought and there was a patch of grass that I suspected was going to die off from fertilizer burn. But instead, its just another area where I have good KBG finally growing at 2.5-3" with all the grass around it stuck at 0.5".

So I'm not sure why my grass has so much difficulty accessing nitrogen...but it takes insane amounts of over fertilization to get my grass to grow.

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Re: Greenrebellions Grass Grow - Poa Annua Monostand

Post by andy10917 » June 24th, 2017, 2:01 pm

So I'm not sure why my grass has so much difficulty accessing nitrogen...but it takes insane amounts of over fertilization to get my grass to grow.
As if I haven't read your soil test results enough lately, something keeps nagging at me. If the budget permits it next year, get a real Soil Structure test. I'd like to see the fractions, and it might explain the nuttiness of some of the all-over-the-board readings.

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Re: Greenrebellions Grass Grow - Poa Annua Monostand

Post by greenrebellion » June 24th, 2017, 2:13 pm

andy10917 wrote:
June 24th, 2017, 2:01 pm
So I'm not sure why my grass has so much difficulty accessing nitrogen...but it takes insane amounts of over fertilization to get my grass to grow.
As if I haven't read your soil test results enough lately, something keeps nagging at me. If the budget permits it next year, get a real Soil Structure test. I'd like to see the fractions, and it might explain the nuttiness of some of the all-over-the-board readings.
I've made a reminder in my phone to have a soil structure test done next Spring (might run it yet this summer seeing as its only $30-$40).

Can you tell me if I should get "Physical Test I" or "Physical Test II"? - http://www.loganlabs.com/testing-services.html

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andy10917
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Re: Greenrebellions Grass Grow - Poa Annua Monostand

Post by andy10917 » June 24th, 2017, 2:26 pm

I had to look that up - I didn't know they had 2 physical tests.

We don't need the extra sand fractions test -- we're not building golf greens. Get the Physical Test 1 test.

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ken-n-nancy
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Re: Greenrebellions Grass Grow - Poa Annua Monostand

Post by ken-n-nancy » June 24th, 2017, 10:06 pm

Well, at least now you know the problem -- your grass wants more fertilizer!

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Re: Greenrebellions Grass Grow - Poa Annua Monostand

Post by greenrebellion » July 1st, 2017, 4:46 pm

Better late than never. About 30-40% of the KBG in the backyard is now putting on vertical growth. I always knew that "sprout and pout" phase tried people's patience, but never imagined I'd have to be this patient :).

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