Greenrebellions Grass Grow - Poa Annua Monostand

[greenrebellion]

Ok, well I appreciate you keeping me honest here. Would suck to nuke my yard if it wasn't actually weeds (though I am 98% sure it is). Here are some pics, hopefully these help...






I'll post again in a minute here with a couple more pics.

[greenrebellion]

This pic is by far the best area of my entire lawn in terms of lack of weeds.

[turf_toes]

That second photo looks like it was taken in a mulch bed.

[greenrebellion]

That second photo looks like it was taken in a mulch bed.

Ya, I snapped that one just because I mowed my lawn yesterday and wanted to get one pic of one that wasn't mowed.

[tlinden]

That looks like nutrient deficient KBG. The seed heads are KBG seed heads. I had a patch that looked funky as well. A dose of starter fert got it green and growing again.

https://turf.purdue.edu/tips/2005/poa.jpg

[andy10917]

I've looked over your soil test twice in the past two days. I see real shortages in the P and K, but it shouldn't be enough to stunt the seedlings. Even the seedhead stuff looks chlorotic to me. I wonder about Sodium salts, persistent herbicides or other things in your compost, but let's stay with the simple just a little longer.

Why don't you get a bag of 10-10-10 at HD/Lowe's and apply it at 10 lbs/K until it runs out - and let's see what happens 10-14 days later?

[greenrebellion]

I've looked over your soil test twice in the past two days. I see real shortages in the P and K, but it shouldn't be enough to stunt the seedlings. Even the seedhead stuff looks chlorotic to me. I wonder about Sodium salts, persistent herbicides or other things in your compost, but let's stay with the simple just a little longer.

Why don't you get a bag of 10-10-10 at HD/Lowe's and apply it at 10 lbs/K until it runs out - and let's see what happens 10-14 days later?

Will do. It is supposed to rain heavily tonight and all day tomorrow...but I will get to the store tomorrow, get it down as soon as the weather clears, and post back here in two weeks.

In the meantime, I've been mowing at 2" because it keeps the seedhead stuff, or whatever it is that seems to be drowning out the dark green grass that isn't growing. Two inches doesn't clip the small dark green grass, just the chlorotic looking seed head stuff.

I do beg to differ on tlinden's post...the seedhead comparison picture he posted pretty much proves that all the seed heads I have are Poa annua. I can take a closeup of a seedhead if you want, but they are not KBG seed heads if the link he posted is accurate.

In any event, I will get the fert down asap.

[andy10917]

I don't know who is arguing they are KBG. I don't think so.

[fusebox7]

I personally think that you have both annua /and/ trivialis. Annua with the seedheads, triv with the purple, larger clumps.

Gosh that SURE does remind me of what I found in my yard...

Compare your picture: https://postimg.io/image/ywr7knq11/

To this picture:
http://image.slidesharecdn.com/2398539/ ... 1257103266

[greenrebellion]

I agree fusebox. After taking the pics yesterday, I realized that what I thought was all Poa Annua is actually two types of weeds that predominate my yard. Annua and Triv seem like the most likely culprits.

[greenrebellion]

Ok, its been 10 days since I threw down 120 pounds of 10/10/10 fertilizer over my 12K square feet and watered it in. There are some areas where the good grass appears to be growing some but the weed pressure is obviously still extremely intense. And there are still plenty of areas (as you'll see in the second of the pics below, where the good grass has failed to start growing yet).

Does anybody offer soil tests that test for foreign contaminants? Salt is the obvious one but there are probably tons of other possibilities outside of that. I feel like I am completely stuck on figuring out a path forward until I resolve the reason that the KBG won't grow properly.

This is what most of my yard looks like:


This area has relatively lower weed pressure but the good grass will not get above 3/4 of an inch or so.

[HoosierLawnGnome]

Been fighting my own poa annua battle on a smaller scale, and got this pic for those wanting to see poa pretensis / poa annua side by side:
Here's blueberry kbg on the left, poa annua on the right


The question I have had is why do you have so many weeds and little to no desirable turfgrass - even with what was decent germination last fall? What the heck was in that hydroseed or compost?

Does it get hot enough in your yard (Michigan) to kill most of the poa annua?

Sodium does show up in soil tests, so you shouldn't need another test for that reason.
It looks to me like you've struggled with clorosis from the beginning but aren't seeing the full affect until now.

The question in my mind - WHY?

Your soil test isn't overly-alkaline - the pH was 6.9 which isn't crazy alkaline - plenty here have had great success (myself included) with KBG and a pH approaching 8.

Last fall's soil test also shows a relatively low sodium level. Is the water you're using on the lawn softened?

The desirable grass you have - how is the root system? Can you dig some up and look?

My thought is that the last question may be the real issue - a basic problem. I had an issue this past fall when I had a lot of washout on areas I didn't rake up this finely shredded layer I thought would act as a top dressing, but what it did was create thatch. Grass germinated in it, but the roots never went into the soil and those areas died out and needed reseeded last fall / this spring. Perhaps the hydroseed mulch and compost mixed together when mother nature rained on you and created thatch? That grass would likely die over the winter with a Michigan winter freezing roots mostly in a thatch layer easily. Fast forward to this spring, and there just isn't much grass left to grow and spread, out competing the weeds introduced from who-knows-where (compost, already there etc).

[greenrebellion]

Thanks for commenting in my thread, Hoosier. I've replied to some of your questions below. When I get home from work tonight, I'll dig up some of the good grass that isn't growing and check out the root situation.

Why do I have so many weeds?
Great question, I assume it has to be the compost. Our neighborhood doesn't even really have Poa Annua natively. I lived on a dirt lot for a year and had no Poa Annua. I also grew something like 40 pots using the seed that went into the hydroseed mix and got zero weeds, nothing but beautiful KBG in the pots.

Regarding Chlorosis?
I agree with you regarding the chlorosis...last fall, the weeds actually looked relatively normal, but this year no matter how much it rains the weeds are crunchy (dried out) and off color. I know soil tests will test Sodium, but I assume there are a lot of other compounds/chemicals that could be interfering with my grass...but I'm not sure if there is any soil test available that can test for these potential contaminants.

Does it get hot enough in your yard (Michigan) to kill most of the poa annua?
Not sure, I mean there are 100's of varieties of Poa Annua and I assume that they all have different abilities to survive summer. Temps here in August get into the 90's for a chunk of the month and it can be somewhat dry (though we still average about 3" of rain in each of July & August). My bigger concern is that if I rehydroseed in fall, there are going to be a ton of weeds that begin to germinate simultaneously since peak Poa Annua germination is in fall. Even if I kill everything off and then water dead lawn in August to get weeds to germinate, I'm worried that the Poa Annua will wait till September/October to fully germinate.

Last fall's soil test also shows a relatively low sodium level. Is the water you're using on the lawn softened?
Negative, my tap water hardness is around 150ppm and is NOT softened. City water.

The desirable grass you have - how is the root system? Can you dig some up and look?
I will reply back later on this question.

[Paul]

Not to sound negative but I think you need to start totally over again, you really don't have any good grass to work with. Even the fertilizer didn't phase it?? But before you start over, you really need to figure out what's going on and why good grass wont grow.

Maybe kill off a small section of the lawn and try reseeding again before you do the entire lawn. I would make sure you can be successful in a small section before doing the entire yard.

Something is definitely not right with your soil or something else??

[LeftField11]

The variable that I see in your reno that I don't see in most other renos is the hydroseeding. Thoughts that come to mind:

- Was there anything besides seed in the slurry mix? Mestrione? Could they have miscalculated and added too much of something that is causing problems still today?
- Does the hydroseed company use their trucks, tanks, hoses for any other types of application? Could there have been something residual in the equipment that contaminated your soil?

I guess there could have been something in the compost too. Your neighbor's lawn doesn't look spectacular, but at least it's growing.

I know nothing about grass other than what I've read on this forum, so I'm not trying to "diagnose" why it isn't growing. I'm just trying to logically think through why your results are different. This has to be frustrating.

If it were me, and I had to do it again, I would use a broadcast spreader to put the seed down, and baled peat moss from a reputable source for top dressing. Eliminate the unknowns. After you figure out what's going on with the soil.

[LeftField11]

I guess there could have been something in the compost too. Your neighbor's lawn doesn't look spectacular, but at least it's growing.

I just went back and read through your entire reno. On page 1, in your very first post, this jumped out at me: "weed free compost."

It might be worth it to find out what the compost supplier does to the compost to make it "weed free". Even a supplier that's been in business for 20 years could have made a mistake on one batch. At this point it isn't about laying blame, it's about figuring out what the hell is going on. Call and pose as a new customer, ask what he does to the compost ensure weed-free.

[HoosierLawnGnome]

Were I to re-renovate the areas that didn't take, I'd strip down to bare earth and top dress with peat moss, which is a sterile top dressing. You'll avoid anything the compost or hydroseed mulch may introduce.

And, like Paul mentioned - test an area out first so you know you can be successful.

[ezael]

Sounds like you had good success with the pots that you grew. Was this in the native soil or something else?

[Paul]

So a stupid question, but I will ask anyway - Did you actually see the Hydro seeding company use the grass seed you purchased? I'm assuming you purchased the seed and gave it to the Hydro seeding company.

[ezael]

Couple more questions. On the first page you said you would apply 6oz/ acre rate in the hydro mix. Then a few posts later it says 8oz /acre. Did you supply the tenacity to the hydroseeder? Did they mix it in? If they did, are they familiar with dosing tenacity? Obviously 8oz is very different than 8oz/acre for 12k sqft.