Fusebox 2017 Front/Side Reno

Discuss how to and whether you should renovate your lawn
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fusebox7
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Fusebox 2017 Front/Side Reno

Post by fusebox7 » April 4th, 2017, 2:00 pm

Having extensive landscaping done the first couple weeks in May which will destroy a lot of the yard due to excavation/machinery etc. Afterwards, I'm having the seedbed "prepped" (foregoing laying sod) in the areas that will receive damage. However, this also leaves areas of the yard that will not be damaged but I'd like to renovate anyways - if anyone recalls my triv explosion last fall... yeah.

This will be the thread for my log. Likely won't start for awhile. I'm still trying to decide if I want to go the 100% KBG route. The full PRG seeding I did in my backyard last summer seems to have greatly survived the (moderate/dry) winter so it's still an intriguing option for me -- especially if we continue to see this winter weather in years to come.

Main concern will be timing of the kill and the seeding. Likely can get away with seeding May through August here but need to formulate a plan based on my ability to effectively kill the current vegetation. Boy the smell of triv gets old fast...

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fusebox7
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Re: Fusebox 2017 Front/Side Reno

Post by fusebox7 » April 10th, 2017, 9:02 am

Time to start putting the plan together...

Ideally have a short time between kill and seed-down as to not go the whole summer with a dead lawn. Does glyphosate and sulfosulfuron have the same effectiveness when it comes to killing POA A&T - or is one better than the other? I know at higher doses sulfo (Certainty) is used for controlling cool-season grasses and I've read great things about its effectiveness at killing Triv. Glypho (Roundup) has me seeing conflicting outcomes on its effectiveness at killing Triv.

I think at minimum I'm looking at a 21-28 day (two round) interval with Certainty and most likely something similar with Roundup. It's the first and biggest step in my opinion and I've never done a full kill so any wisdom from the braintrust would be very much appreciated and heeded. Thanks.

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fusebox7
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Re: Fusebox 2017 Front/Side Reno

Post by fusebox7 » April 12th, 2017, 6:58 pm

Doing some small scale experimenting. Sprayed Certainty in back/side test area at .75oz/A rate. Planning on doing a second app in 21 or 28 days, as recommended. Will see what happens to the KBG, FF, PRG and Triv...

ligrass
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Re: Fusebox 2017 Front/Side Reno

Post by ligrass » April 13th, 2017, 10:16 am

Why mess with Certainty when you're going to nuke it anyway? Maybe I misunderstood your plan but I would just nuke everything in June before the Triv goes dormant.

I've never used Certainty but I can't imagine anything is as effective as regular glyphosate (not fast action RU)

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fusebox7
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Re: Fusebox 2017 Front/Side Reno

Post by fusebox7 » April 13th, 2017, 10:30 am

If somehow the triv goes and the PRG stays, I'll stick with a PRG plantation. If it all dies or is ineffective, full nuclear and 100% KBG.


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fusebox7
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Re: Fusebox 2017 Front/Side Reno

Post by fusebox7 » April 14th, 2017, 12:54 pm

Question on living stolons from Triv...

Say you blast the lawn with glyphosate, the leaf blades die off and just the stolons remain (brown). You're advised to hit it again with glyphosate - do the stolons actually absorb the herbicide? Just curious how you're actually able to prevent stolons from regenerating new leaves (see below pic from my yard after doing a test plot of glyphosate last fall):

Image

ligrass
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Re: Fusebox 2017 Front/Side Reno

Post by ligrass » April 15th, 2017, 11:05 pm

No, the stolons won't absorb the herbicide if there is no grass growing from them. The worst part about triv is those dormant stolons just wait for the right conditions to sprout new blades. That's why it's a multi-year battle (never-ending battle). The only way to prevent this 100% is mechanical removal. I'm still battling this stuff after 4 years of RU'ing every patch I see and a full reno. New ones pop up every spring. Honestly, knowing what I know now I think I would've removed the top 3 inches of soil around my oak tree and replaced with new soil from the get go.

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fusebox7
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Re: Fusebox 2017 Front/Side Reno

Post by fusebox7 » April 16th, 2017, 9:27 am

ligrass - have you used Certainty by chance?

That's why I originally asked about Certainty vs. Roundup since Certainty is a WAY slower kill, as results aren't typically seen until around a month after initial application. Roundup is usually in a few days. I realize that it's apples/oranges but the intended result is the same.

The way I understand it is the recommended two-application approach (of Certainty) is such that when you apply the 2nd application, there's still a bit of living foliage left to absorb it and deliver the knockout punch. That's why I was running this trial...

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fusebox7
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Re: Fusebox 2017 Front/Side Reno

Post by fusebox7 » April 17th, 2017, 8:20 am

After sweating it out on NTEP ( for what seemed like years )... decided with a Award/Bewitched duostand which looks like will be a great compromise for my wants/needs. Looking forward to getting started with the official kill in June...

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andy10917
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Re: Fusebox 2017 Front/Side Reno

Post by andy10917 » April 17th, 2017, 9:00 am

Do you have suppliers for your selected cultivars? Just because there are cultivars that are on the NTEP doesn't mean someone is actively selling them.

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fusebox7
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Re: Fusebox 2017 Front/Side Reno

Post by fusebox7 » April 17th, 2017, 10:40 am

Yes. Already ordered both.

ligrass
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Re: Fusebox 2017 Front/Side Reno

Post by ligrass » April 17th, 2017, 12:18 pm

Good luck. I think you're making a wise decision. Feed it and keep it healthy for the kill. Triv is not something I would personally experiment with or try to weaken with other chemicals before killing. I'd bust out the MOAB, nuke, firebomb, whatever...from the get go. Keep the Certainty in your arsenal for when some of it regenerates in the future.

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fusebox7
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Re: Fusebox 2017 Front/Side Reno

Post by fusebox7 » April 17th, 2017, 1:48 pm

Yep - that's what I decided. I bought the Certainty because the writing was on the wall for the KBG reno anyway but sometimes we like to do experiments - that's why we're on this forum :) Thanks for your help. Will document the reno experience as I make my moves.

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fusebox7
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Re: Fusebox 2017 Front/Side Reno

Post by fusebox7 » April 18th, 2017, 7:53 am

Since it's been recommended to kill the triv before warmer weather, I'm doing what you could call a "summer reno". Tentative dates below:

May 27 - Glypho round 1, fallow for a week
June 3 - Glypho round 2
June 4 - Scalp, rake, seed/fert

Only question I have at this point is should I add another round of glypho or should I fallow for 2 weeks instead of 1, etc.?

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andy10917
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Re: Fusebox 2017 Front/Side Reno

Post by andy10917 » April 18th, 2017, 8:12 am

I read the thread (admittedly quickly) and I don't see who thinks a Summer Reno is a good idea. You're taking a reno right into the most challenging/stressful weather of the year.

Also, putting 7 days between Round 1 and Round 2 does not constitute fallowing, even if the word is used. The lawn will barely be dead in that time. The idea of fallowing is to permit enough time of watering the soil following the kill that a new crop of weeds will germinate and be killed by the second round.

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fusebox7
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Re: Fusebox 2017 Front/Side Reno

Post by fusebox7 » April 18th, 2017, 8:57 am

Andy thanks for the response - I figured something was off with the kill portion. Instead of using the term, "fallow" incorrectly, is it recommended to instead wait two weeks between glyphosate apps and then seed after the 2nd app? Or given the nature of late-summer/early-fall seeding, should I fallow the entire summer (May through July)?

Point taken on the summer reno comment. I agree. While I understand it's universally viewed as "not recommended" I feel the need to get seed down since we typically have short, mild summers and winter quickly approaches in the fall. My biggest concern is killing in May/June and waiting until mid-August (all whilst having a dead lawn) and then having a very short timeframe for it to get established before it goes dormant for winter. When we had our lot seeded (new establishment) I was told the same thing (it was seeded in July) but it came in nicely - maybe partly due to it being north-facing with mid/late-afternoon partial shade and in-ground irrigation. I'm not trying to argue against your statement but merely present my reasoning for seeding as I have planned to see if it holds water.

Happy to readjust plans based on everyone's wisdom. Thanks again.

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fusebox7
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Re: Fusebox 2017 Front/Side Reno

Post by fusebox7 » April 18th, 2017, 9:33 am

Found this in the FAQ - knew I missed the followup to the 2nd glypho app: "Apply non-selective herbicide (kills all vegetation) and again one week after the first application. You can seed the lawn one week after the second app. "

So given my situation the revised dates would be:
May 27 - Glypho round 1, fallow for a week
June 3 - Glypho round 2
June 10 - Scalp, rake, seed/fert/topdress

From reading the forums and other studies that have been done it seems like people have had the best success with (suppressing) the triv by doing the glyphosate apps in the spring (vs. fall). One source states, "results from these studies suggest that glyphosate most effectively controls rough bluegrass when applied in the spring."

So is the best option for me to kill in spring, and wait until fall to seed? 2nd best option to seed after kill in late-spring? With the triv infestation I have, I worry that if I were to wait to do any killing in late-summer that the triv won't be "awake" yet. Or, just try to kill everything late-summer and get on an aggressive Certainty regimen for years to come... I'd like to start with as little triv as I can, if possible.

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fusebox7
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Re: Fusebox 2017 Front/Side Reno

Post by fusebox7 » April 19th, 2017, 8:49 am

Alright. I got approval from "the boss". Kill will still start end of May but will last through summer, along with soil amendments and leveling, where needed. Plan is to start seed-down around the beginning of August as summer starts to break and temps level off and head down.

Now I have a concern with erosion since there will be 2+ months with no living vegetation on 15-20% slope. Should I wait to scalp and rake until right before seeding (hoping that the dead matter will hold the soil in place)?

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fusebox7
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Re: Fusebox 2017 Front/Side Reno

Post by fusebox7 » April 20th, 2017, 7:06 pm

Have done a boat-load of reading lately. Lots of variables and lots of variance in renos. Good stuff. One thread that particularly stood out to me was: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1834

GaryC's post makes a lot of sense, scientifically speaking, and echoes exactly what I need to do so I can fallow during spring flush, get things up and running in July, and get a solid Pre-m down when any leftover Poa wants to go crazy in fall. My last reno (new establishment) was in July and everything established great - sure lots of watering but I'm willing to do that and watch it like a hawk. I can understand that it's maybe not the preferred option for 90% of people but I feel this decision in my gut. Of course if it ends up somehow being 100+ degrees all of July then option B is to seed the following month. No biggie.

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fusebox7
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Re: Fusebox 2017 Front/Side Reno

Post by fusebox7 » May 2nd, 2017, 7:28 pm

Debating adding Rhapsody to my Award/Bewitched duostand. However, I'm not sure if my pros outweigh my cons. Looking at all of the past reno threads, it seems that there are a lot of "regrets" from those who've added America types to their blends that were otherwise primarily dark cultivars. I'm thinking in terms of uniformity and having a more knit/horizontal growth and darker lawn, I should probably stick to my current two selections.

Happy to hear if anyone has any input or arguments either way but I think I'll stick with my gut.

Reasons for Rhapsody: top performer in MI, faster establishment, spring greenup, density, turf quality, diversity/disease-resistance

Reasons against Rhapsody: a little lighter in color, faster growing, more vertical growth type, finer blade

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