Marinegrunt's 2017 Fall Renovation

Discuss how to and whether you should renovate your lawn
Marinegrunt
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Re: Marinegrunt's 2017 Fall Renovation

Post by Marinegrunt » September 27th, 2017, 11:15 am

Here's a picture of the whole lawn. It's bad but I think it could be a lot worse. I'm not sure why the area in the distance is a lime green color. Probably just the crappy soil. I've got some more work to do but it's nothing that can't be fixed.


This is 27 days since seed down.

Image

This is day 19 since seed down. You can definitely see a big difference but you can also tell it already had some thin spots.

Image

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Re: Marinegrunt's 2017 Fall Renovation

Post by JohnP » September 27th, 2017, 12:13 pm

Even with the thin spots and what you're going through that looks real good. I was reading about dormant seeding, never new it was a thing 'til I saw a post of yours about it.

Did you get the Subdue locally? Seems like you switched hard and fast to that from the Prop.

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Re: Marinegrunt's 2017 Fall Renovation

Post by smast16 » September 27th, 2017, 12:20 pm

One nice thing is the neighbor isn't our pervin.

Man that fungus is taking a toll. I know the feeling. Has your weather changed yet?

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Re: Marinegrunt's 2017 Fall Renovation

Post by Marinegrunt » September 27th, 2017, 1:20 pm

This morning felt like fall. There was a nice cool breeze that felt great.

I switched to Subdue Maxx once I figured out it was Pythium Blight. Propicazonole won't touch Pythium and I guess Subdue, or generic equivalent, is all that will. I didn't have much of a choice unless I was going to let it run its course. I don't actually have the Subdue Maxx yet. I called my local SiteOne and all they had was a gallon container in stock. At more than $600 per gallon I decided to order a quart online. It should be here Friday. I'm not really worried about stopping the little bit that's left I want it to protect the seed so I know it will germinate. I read that Pythium Blight is a soil born fungus so could effect the seed.

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Re: Marinegrunt's 2017 Fall Renovation

Post by Marinegrunt » October 2nd, 2017, 9:02 pm

I applied the Subdue Maxx on Saturday and waterered it in. When I got home from work this evening I did my 30 day Tenacity application. I don't have much for weed pressure. A few broadleaf but not many at all. I thought I'd have more because I slit seeded sloped areas. I'm about 6 days early on the 30 day Tenacity but, I have so many bare spots from the fungus, I wasn't too worried about it. Plus, I wanted to get it down before I spot seed which will hopefully be tomorrow.


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Re: Marinegrunt's 2017 Fall Renovation

Post by JohnP » October 2nd, 2017, 10:30 pm

Any noticeable difference since the treatment Saturday? I stopped by our local Site One today finally. $115 for 8oz Tenacity, but $25 for Urea (same price elsewhere here). Your $600 treatment isn't so shocking anymore.

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Re: Marinegrunt's 2017 Fall Renovation

Post by HoosierLawnGnome » October 3rd, 2017, 9:11 am

I think you have an issue more with damping off, which is a form of pythium and can turn into pythium blight. Why? Look at the lime green color you referenced. Too much water. Too much fertility (Nitrogen). The lime green seedlings you have look whispy. Unfortunately, telling you to apply Nitrogen and water at dusk was a bad idea.

Back off the Nitrogen, let that turf dry out. Keep it mowed regularly, and low. The subdue was a good idea.

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Re: Marinegrunt's 2017 Fall Renovation

Post by Marinegrunt » October 3rd, 2017, 1:11 pm

HoosierLawnGnome wrote:
October 3rd, 2017, 9:11 am
I think you have an issue more with damping off, which is a form of pythium and can turn into pythium blight. Why? Look at the lime green color you referenced. Too much water. Too much fertility (Nitrogen). The lime green seedlings you have look whispy. Unfortunately, telling you to apply Nitrogen and water at dusk was a bad idea.

Back off the Nitrogen, let that turf dry out. Keep it mowed regularly, and low. The subdue was a good idea.
Thanks for the reply Hoosier.

It was my fault urea was recommended because I thought it was Dollar Spot at first. It had the cobwebs and the spots were dollar size and round. I applied the urea and watered it in. I also applied Propicazonole later that evening. After that water I didn't water for 10 days or so. A few days after applying the urea the Pythium Blight started to spread big time. That's kind of when I realized It was Pythium Blight. It was just killing my grass too fast to be dollar spot. Plus, it was "greasy" and left a reddish rust color on the soil. The "cobwebs" were patchy in well over half the yard. After about a week the cooler temps came back and now the Pythium Blight is gone or atleast no signs of it. Letting the ground completely dry out helped more than anything. By the time I got the Subdue the Pythium Blight was basically gone. I

I don't think the lime green grass turned to that color until after the urea. Prior to the fungus I was definitely watering too much.

I did lose quite a bit of grass to the Pythium. I'm hoping the spot seed fills it all in. I had some thin spots anyways. I'm definitely going to go easier on the water this time. I'm sure the cooler temps ahead will help with any future fungus this fall but I felt better about getting the Subdue Maxx down just in case.

Since I'll be spot seeding so late how should I handle winterizing? It sounds like I wouldn't want to add nitrogen now because of the lime green grass but will I even be able to in about a month or does it just depend on the weather and growing season?

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Re: Marinegrunt's 2017 Fall Renovation

Post by STL » October 3rd, 2017, 6:32 pm

I don't think you'll have an issue with the final winterizing urea app even if you re seed now. For reference, last year, I winterized after growth stopped in early December. You probably would have been a couple weeks before that. Obviously, this year will depend on this year's conditions, but you have time for even the reseeded grass to mature some before then.

You may not want to put more N down in a month though since the grass likely will be slowing down for the winter. General recommendation is to stop N apps around the average first frost date to allow that slow down to happen naturally. If the time between the average first frost and when growth stops is longer in your area, like it is for me here in St. Louis, you'll have some more time for N. So, the tougher call is when you can get in more N this year before the winterizer. Given the fugal issues, I'd probably reevaluate next week after this expected rain passes through and temps drop some more.

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Re: Marinegrunt's 2017 Fall Renovation

Post by Marinegrunt » October 5th, 2017, 10:39 pm

STL wrote:
October 3rd, 2017, 6:32 pm
I don't think you'll have an issue with the final winterizing urea app even if you re seed now. For reference, last year, I winterized after growth stopped in early December. You probably would have been a couple weeks before that. Obviously, this year will depend on this year's conditions, but you have time for even the reseeded grass to mature some before then.

You may not want to put more N down in a month though since the grass likely will be slowing down for the winter. General recommendation is to stop N apps around the average first frost date to allow that slow down to happen naturally. If the time between the average first frost and when growth stops is longer in your area, like it is for me here in St. Louis, you'll have some more time for N. So, the tougher call is when you can get in more N this year before the winterizer. Given the fugal issues, I'd probably reevaluate next week after this expected rain passes through and temps drop some more.
Thanks STL..... hopefully it's a fall where I can get some urea apps down late. I'd really like to in hopes of it helping the grass come spring. With the fungal issues I should just be happy I even have grass.

We haven't had much rain yet. It has rained late the last two nights but nothing heavy. I think it's suppose to rain again tonight. I spot seeded Tuesday so I'm hoping I make it past tonight without a gusher. I've been extremely lucky with the rain during my whole reno. We've hardly had anything over the last month. If you don't count these last two days I would guess only 1/4" inch all of September although it could've been more.

Here in a few weeks they're going to start culvert replacement on our cul de sac. Ours is the first of 4 and always backs up during a rain. Two of the neighbors have never cleaned theirs out so the ground is actually higher than the top of the culvert with maybe a 2" opening through the dirt for water to run. I get a lake in our front yard. They're suppose to install bigger culverts. I hope they don't tear too much of the yard up. I just graded the ditch over the summer too. I'll probably end up wanting to do it again because I'm sure they'll just dig out the ditch right by the culvert edge to make it deeper which will make it impossible to mow. I'll probably have to start back like 10' and taper it. I guess it depends on how much bigger they go with the culvert. I wish they would've done it over the summer.

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Re: Marinegrunt's 2017 Fall Renovation

Post by andy10917 » October 5th, 2017, 10:51 pm

hopefully it's a fall where I can get some urea apps down late.
It's your lawn and you can do what you want, but if you are following the Fall Nitrogen Regimens, you bet on the Average First Frost Date to be 3-4 weeks ahead of when the grass stops growing. Actual First Frost Date is not reliable - you can have the Actual First Frost and growth cessation 5 days later. Too late - you just caused the tender growth during The Pause, and that grass will be more prone to WInter Kill and Spring fungal problems. Several people every year say confidently "I'll risk it" and then cry like a baby when it really happens.

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Re: Marinegrunt's 2017 Fall Renovation

Post by Marinegrunt » October 6th, 2017, 10:37 am

andy10917 wrote:
October 5th, 2017, 10:51 pm
hopefully it's a fall where I can get some urea apps down late.
It's your lawn and you can do what you want, but if you are following the Fall Nitrogen Regimens, you bet on the Average First Frost Date to be 3-4 weeks ahead of when the grass stops growing. Actual First Frost Date is not reliable - you can have the Actual First Frost and growth cessation 5 days later. Too late - you just caused the tender growth during The Pause, and that grass will be more prone to WInter Kill and Spring fungal problems. Several people every year say confidently "I'll risk it" and then cry like a baby when it really happens.
Are you saying I should go ahead with the Fall Nitrogen Regime? Just in case you didn't see it I just spot seeded after getting hit really hard with Pythium Blight. I know it's late to seed but I have some large areas where most of the grass died and small spots scattered throughout the whole lawn. I figured I had better wait until at least a few weeks past germination for urea but want to do what's best. Any recommendations would be appreciated.

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Re: Marinegrunt's 2017 Fall Renovation

Post by northeastlawn » October 6th, 2017, 11:17 am

There are plenty of members of this board that know better then me, but the avg. first frost is an avg. Its a safe day to stop, you may get two more weeks of growing, but its your best bet to stop with the urea apps for your areas avg first frost.

By over-seeding or putting down more seed, you give up certain things like pre-m or fall fertilizer, if you follow the practices people on the board like to follow. If you decide to do something else it may or may not work, but generally the people on here know what they are talking about.

At some point the season for reseeding is done, you can try in the spring or just want until next year again. If 80% of the reno came out good, what good are you doing by holding something up for the 10-20% of the re-seeded grass that may die anyway.

That is one mistake I always made. I hope this years reno comes out better, because I out a pre-m down and the KBG will spread to the rest of the lawn. I always watered way too much, way too long and POA filled in all the gaps.

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Re: Marinegrunt's 2017 Fall Renovation

Post by Marinegrunt » October 6th, 2017, 7:42 pm

northeastlawn wrote:
October 6th, 2017, 11:17 am
There are plenty of members of this board that know better then me, but the avg. first frost is an avg. Its a safe day to stop, you may get two more weeks of growing, but its your best bet to stop with the urea apps for your areas avg first frost.

By over-seeding or putting down more seed, you give up certain things like pre-m or fall fertilizer, if you follow the practices people on the board like to follow. If you decide to do something else it may or may not work, but generally the people on here know what they are talking about.

At some point the season for reseeding is done, you can try in the spring or just want until next year again. If 80% of the reno came out good, what good are you doing by holding something up for the 10-20% of the re-seeded grass that may die anyway.

That is one mistake I always made. I hope this years reno comes out better, because I out a pre-m down and the KBG will spread to the rest of the lawn. I always watered way too much, way too long and POA filled in all the gaps.
That all makes a lot of sense Northeaetlawn. Thanks for the reply. I guess I maybe should've just waited and did some dormant seeding. Once I got hit by that Pythium Blight I think I basically had tunnel vision worrying about spot seeding. I think the thin areas and some small dead patches from the fungus might fill in but I definitely have some areas that would not though. I have a couple areas that got hit hard that might be 8' x 15' each. One is even longer. I'm talking hardly any grass left there so something needed done. I guess dormant or spring was still an option though.

When I first noticed signs of the fungus I thought it was Dollar Spot so did apply urea so have done one feeding. I'd say it was about 2 weeks ago. I did apply a starter Monday before spot seeding so it got another light nitrogen feeding then. I wonder if it would hurt to do like .5 lbs urea now to get a little more down before the seed germinates and then just take a chance on the newly germinated seed and go ahead and winterize on the average first frost date?

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Re: Marinegrunt's 2017 Fall Renovation

Post by STL » October 6th, 2017, 8:27 pm

Make sure to read the aggressive fall nitrogen thread. You want to stop applying N at your average first frost date, which is probably coming up soon, and winterize after the grass stops growing for the year, several weeks from now.

When is your average first frost date? And how much N did you put down during the fungus problem and last Monday? That will help determine what to do for the rest of the year. You probably have time for one more N before average first frost and then you'll still get the winterize too when growth stops.

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Re: Marinegrunt's 2017 Fall Renovation

Post by andy10917 » October 6th, 2017, 8:48 pm

Are you saying I should go ahead with the Fall Nitrogen Regime? Just in case you didn't see it I just spot seeded after getting hit really hard with Pythium Blight. I know it's late to seed but I have some large areas where most of the grass died and small spots scattered throughout the whole lawn. I figured I had better wait until at least a few weeks past germination for urea but want to do what's best. Any recommendations would be appreciated.
No. I'm (nicely) trying to convince you not to make risky applications trying to "make up for" the troubles you've faced. At some point, you need to shut down the "I can catch up if the rest goes perfectly" planning. Wait for Spring and pick up the pieces then. Trust that the Average First Frost Date is a tested best-practice, and don't hope that some lucky sunny days will make it all good.

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Re: Marinegrunt's 2017 Fall Renovation

Post by Marinegrunt » October 6th, 2017, 10:53 pm

I read through the Fall Nitrogen Regime again and definitely needed too. It makes me feel better about spot seeding as late as I did. When it's time for the winterizer app I think the new grass will be mature enough by then. Although, it'll be close.

My average first frost date is October 14th. When I had the fungus I put down 1 lb/k of urea (.46 lb nitrogen). As for the starter it was Scott's. It says 24% nitrogen. A 42 lb bag covers 14k and I just went by their setting for their edgeguard.

Sounds like I'll just wait until the winterizer app. Thank you both for your help and "nicely" urging me to slow down.

Oh, by the way STL, that lime green area that I had is pretty much completely gone. I know you mentioned maybe nitrogen being the possible cause. I wonder if the grass was too young at the time I applied It?

Thanks again

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Re: Marinegrunt's 2017 Fall Renovation

Post by Marinegrunt » October 10th, 2017, 10:41 am

It has been about 8 days since spot seeding so I'm expecting germination any day. The sun hasn't been out much over the last 5 says so I'm guessing that may have an impact. The existing grass is about 30 days since germination. I mowed short before spot seeding but it's growing fast. I still have some whitening from the 30 day Tenacity app I applied when I also spot seeded.

I found a used Fiskars Stay Sharp on Craigslist so picked it up to mow the existing grass until the new seed germinates and is mature enough. It was bought new in April and the lady used it once. She decided her lawn was too big for it. The Fiskars works great. It's about the same as using a gas powered push mower that's not self propelled. I doubt I'll continue to use it in the future though.

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Re: Marinegrunt's 2017 Fall Renovation

Post by JohnP » October 10th, 2017, 1:52 pm

I picked up a Scott's Reel Mower as well for my overseed. I thought about returning it but figured I'd hold on to it for those future overseeds...'cause there's no way this fall was the last.

It will just see more shed time than my Ego but I need to clean it up before I store it for the winter.

You really think you'll never justify using it again? ;)

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Re: Marinegrunt's 2017 Fall Renovation

Post by Marinegrunt » October 10th, 2017, 4:11 pm

JohnP wrote:
October 10th, 2017, 1:52 pm
I picked up a Scott's Reel Mower as well for my overseed. I thought about returning it but figured I'd hold on to it for those future overseeds...'cause there's no way this fall was the last.

It will just see more shed time than my Ego but I need to clean it up before I store it for the winter.

You really think you'll never justify using it again? ;)
I might keep it. Spring and fall are my busy seasons at work and I usually work 60-84 hour weeks. (Spring and fall are when people use the least electricity so power stations shut the units down then and work picks up) The grass grows fast during those seasons and, with not a lot of time, I'll probably stick to the rider for the most part. Last night when I used the Fiskars for the first time it was 9:00 pm and I had a cap light on so I could see.

Like you mentioned it might be handy to keep around for future over seeds. It's fun to use and I bet it wouldn't take too long to do the 9500 square feet. I'll have to time it sometime.

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