Greenrebellion's Fall 2017 Renovation

[Paul]

What if I do something a little crazy and renovate July 26th, irrigate aggressively and then put a pre-em down September 3rd coinciding with P. annua season.

Not sure where you got the September 3rd date from. It really depends on weather and not by a calendar. What happens if it germinates mid August? I think your flirting with a possible disaster.

[llO0DQLE]

How did you apply Tenacity last fall? Rates and timing..

[llO0DQLE]

In an effort to continue to figure out WTH is going on with my dirt, I present to you soil profile shots. When I was recently digging soil samples, I noticed that I have a bifurcation in the soil that wasn't there a year ago. At first I though, it must be THATCH! but I don't think so, thatch is made up of dense roots, dead shoots etc. and I don't think that's what I have here.

That said, what is this black soil layer at top, somehow I doubt I've built an inch of black topsoil in a 12 month period. Any thoughts?

How much BLSC and Kelp Help have you done in the past 12 months? In my previous lawn which I renovated in 2015, I believe that BLSC and Kelp Help transformed my soil into black dirt. It wasn't black when I first moved in in 2013 and when we dug 3 foot holes to build a fence the soil was black all the way down in the lawn. In the non lawn areas that I didn't apply BLSC/KH it wasn't black, nor was my next door neighbor's soil. In those areas we hit subsoil after a few inches almost like in your pic, maybe with a little more topsoil. I would do biweekly apps of BLSC and KH if I were in your shoes.

I was applying BLSC and KH every 2 weeks in 2015. I'm sure other organic amendments from the years prior also helped such as Milo and mulched leaves but I wasn't so aggressive with that before 2015 and it was BLSC and KH that I was aggressive with in 2015 that makes me think that it was the reason for the transformation.

[greenrebellion]

Not sure where you got the September 3rd date from. It really depends on weather and not by a calendar. What happens if it germinates mid August? I think your flirting with a possible disaster.

I agree with your point but the issue is that I am flirting with disaster no matter what I do. At least this gets a pre-emergent barrier down earlier which given my unique situation MIGHT be more optimal. If I renovate August 15th then I'll most definitely be past the P. Annua germination window by the time I can apply something.

Go with Dimension, the label on Jonathan Greens' Crabgrass and Weed preventer says you can apply 2 weeks after germination.

Wow, good call. Label states:

Exception: In newly established lawns of Kentucky bluegrass, perennial ryegrass and/or tall fescue, this product may be applied two weeks after the first sign of germination.

Which means that if I can get my KBG to germinate by day 28 then a pre-em is feasible by day 42 which is labor day weekend.

How did you apply Tenacity last fall? Rates and timing..

All apps were 4 oz per acre. Initial app at seed down. First one post germination was Sept 9th and turned P. Annua white. Second was September 26th and had no impact. The third app I only applied to a test area a week or two later since the second app did nothing and again the P. Annua was 100% unphased by the third app.

Oh and to answer your other question, my first app of BLSC/KH was two weeks ago so I only have made one app ever on my property. I dug up the black dirt again yesterday and smelled it to see if it was sulfur or aneoribic but it smelled like healthy dirt. No clue what it is but it definitely didn't look like that 12 months ago.

[llO0DQLE]

It really depends on weather and not by a calendar. What happens if it germinates mid August?

I second this. Especially when irrigating daily during a reno, P. Annua will germinate regardless of season. I had poa germinate in July in my 2015 spring reno withe air temps in the 80 - 85 range.

[greenrebellion]

I also wanted to post as a reminder the pic below. This is the kind of density of P. annua I was dealing with last year.

This is after the first app of Tenacity that turned the P. annua white. This pic was representative of my entire yard last fall.
https://postimg.cc/image/ljvtbr6r5/

[greenrebellion]

It really depends on weather and not by a calendar. What happens if it germinates mid August?

I second this. Especially when irrigating daily during a reno, P. Annua will germinate regardless of season. I had poa germinate in July in my 2015 spring reno withe air temps in the 80 - 85 range.

Well, if this happens in my case, this would be good news and would likely make me wait to the August 12th seed down date. I'm two weeks into my fallow though and am not seeing anything pop up outside of some broadleaf weeds, barnyard grass and nutsedge...all of which won't be an issue in the reno with Tenacity.

If P. Annua doesn't germinate for me during the fallow, then I am basically gauranteed a repeat of last year by seeding mid August and not being able to get a pre-em down until late September, at which point I'll have another Poa Annua monostand that is resistant to Tenacity.

The other option is to fallow until mid September and keep nuking the P. Annua. But that leads to definite early frost issues before full establishment (10% chance of first frost starting Sept. 26th, 50% by Oct 10th in my area).

In truth, there are no good options which is why I willing to experiment here a bit.

[llO0DQLE]

It seems that your good topsoil is very shallow and that's why KBG is struggling. Poa is shallow rooted and that's probably why it's thriving. I would keep on the BLSC + KH apps biweekly. Check the soil profile in 3 months and reassess.

From what I remember reading here, I think the popular protocol for Tenacity for Poa was 4 Oz for first app followed by 2oz apps 4 - 7 days later and repeat until it's gone or you hit the yearly limit. It sure worked great for me in my last reno.

[greenrebellion]

It seems that your good topsoil is very shallow and that's why KBG is struggling. Poa is shallow rooted and that's probably why it's thriving. I would keep on the BLSC + KH apps biweekly. Check the soil profile in 3 months and reassess.

From what I remember reading here, I think the popular protocol for Tenacity for Poa was 4 Oz for first app followed by 2oz apps 4 - 7 days later and repeat until it's gone or you hit the yearly limit. It sure worked great for me in my last reno.

Cool.

I may just stay the course then and reno around August 12th. I was walking through my yard and I am starting to see some grass seedlings popping up so hopefully some P. Annua is germinating, but its too early to tell what kind of grass they are. Also found a thread from 2010 where Andy posted that he had Poa Annua germinating in July after heavy watering.

So hopefully a successful fallow period (which I lacked last year) combined with the different Tenacity approach that you mentioned can be the difference makers for me this year. Time will tell.

Also, my second app of BLSC/KH was over this past weekend and so I'll have two more application opportunities before seed down.

[greenrebellion]

Good news and bad news.

The amount of grass seedlings I have popping up during this fallow is surreal. So its good because I'll be able to kill them yet its disturbing how many weed seeds remain in this soil. Hopefully a high enough % germinate so I don't have another fall disaster on my hands. (too early to tell if any of them are P. annua)

I am also getting quite a bit of the winter annual "Purple Deadnettle" germinating (which usually germinates mid September and dies every June)...which sort of shows that you can get winter annuals to germinate if the moisture levels are high enough.

Thanks guys for encouraging me to stick with the fallow period and not renovate early.

[greenrebellion]

Spent six hours raking the entire reno area today. Not sure if it had to be done as the grass was never super thick to begin with and I scalped it really low, but I did it anyway just to be sure. NO SHORTCUTS THIS YEAR. If I fail this time around, at least I'll know I gave it everything I had.

I have a small area in the backyard with KBG that grew 3 inches in 8 days. That may not mean much to most of you, but this is a huge breakthrough on my property where it stayed at a 1/2 inch height for almost a year. Maybe the soil work I've done with fertilization and BLSC/KH is starting to make a difference.

Still getting TONS of grass weed seed germination in the reno area (in many spots it looks like I've already put KBG seed down, that's how thick it is coming in). Not sure how to kill it off though as I imagine even a fine mist teejet nozzle is going to have trouble hitting super young grass seedlings I have two roundup apps left, one in a few days and one in 2.5 weeks right before seed down so hopefully one of those two sprays will do the trick.

[greenrebellion]

Those that have followed my prior failed renovation and the current one will appreciate this photo the most, but I am so thrilled tonight to show you guys a very small part of my backyard. I finally got it to grow successfully and look at what I produced! So this shows that my soil is capable of growing KBG even if it is a bit stubborn. Backyard still needs a 2018 reno as I have huge swaths of Course Fescue and Triv but I am EXTREMELY encouraged that I can find success in my current front yard reno.

[ken-n-nancy]

Yay!

[g-man]

I think it is time to change your grass type from poa annua monostand. :-)

[andy10917]

Just be very careful!! "Poa Plantation" is taken.

[greenrebellion]

I think it is time to change your grass type from poa annua monostand.

Soon! Front yard is still a Poa Annua monostand as I have thousands of young seedlings coming up during my fallow. Hopefully it will soon turn into a Bewitched KBG mono.

Growing a 100sq ft of good grass is one thing, growing 12K sf is another matter entirely and one I haven't yet achieved! Most of the backyard looks like a vegetable garden. Tons of different weed types. I'm going to start getting it under control though (pre-emergent this weekend, triangle approach around Labor Day). I figure less weed pressure equals less weed seeds in the soil going into my 2018 reno. Going to need another LONG fallow in summer '18.

[SNOWBOB11]

Nice. You obviously have lots of work to do to get your entire lawn looking like that picture but it's a good start.

[llO0DQLE]

Nice! What do you think was key to success?

[greenrebellion]

Nice! What do you think was key to success?

Tons of fertilizer, BLSC/KH to soften and reduce hydrophobic tendencies, tons of water (the are that is doing well overlaps the sprinkler zone in my reno so it has gotten tons of water the past month during my fallow).

I think my soil was just super crappy so working on it for the past year has helped. Plus that area had little weed pressure so less competition for nutrients.

[ken-n-nancy]

...

Tons of fertilizer, BLSC/KH to soften and reduce hydrophobic tendencies, tons of water (the are that is doing well overlaps the sprinkler zone in my reno so it has gotten tons of water the past month during my fallow).

I fully agree that it's very encouraging to see that you have been able to get what looks like excellent results on at least a small section! I'm glad to be able to rejoice with you on that!

However, the above one-sentence description above of what you've done to get those results set off some alarm bells for me, given our experience in the late summer and fall of 2016 regarding our 2015 Side Lawn Bewitched Reno.

For our fall 2015 reno, we got seed down too late in the year, the grass didn't have enough time to get out of "sprout and pout" before winter, and spring 2016 arrived with young Bewitched that survived the winter but still hadn't grown enough to mow. It was slow to wake up in the spring, and I was reluctant to apply too much fertilizer, not wanting to overapply. I then tried some fertilizer, got good results, and kept applying. By the end of June, I felt that we had victory and concluded our renovation thread. We ended up babying the grass with frequent moderate doses of fertilizer and generous water through a very dry summer.

By mid-summer, the renovation was looking pretty good, with the grass growing vigorously, being nice and lush, with increasing density, and us being pleased with the fruit of our labors. Then, the grass started looking like it was struggling, which I (mis)interpreted as being insufficient watering and/or fertilization, so I increased the watering and the fertilization. Rather, the struggle was due to fungal disease. I realized this too late and didn't have the experience or tools on hand to attack it. On the bright side, our attempts with fungicides kept the lawn from dying off completely, but only just. By October, the side lawn renovation had regressed to the point that I was wondering if it would survive the winter and I would need to do a spring 2017 renovation or have no lawn until a fall 2017 renovation.

In any case, the whole point of this post is to urge you to be wary of that lush, green grass at this time of year when fungal diseases are prone to run rampant.

Our latitudes are such that we don't normally face much in the way of lawn diseases, so I was unprepared and unexperienced with dealing with them. This year, I've been much less generous with the watering and the fertilizer while spraying Serenade as a preventative, and the grass is showing promise, although I've seen signs of disease pressure. I won't feel like we're out of the danger zone until we start getting frost on the lawn again!