Greenrebellion's Fall 2017 Renovation

Discuss how to and whether you should renovate your lawn
HoosierDaddy
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Re: Greenrebellion's Fall 2017 Renovation

Post by HoosierDaddy » June 17th, 2017, 1:08 pm

HLG- I only got the peat roller this Spring. Wish I would have had it for my 2016 reno. But I will make full use of it for 2017.

Greenrebellion- for my 3500 sq ft reno I used 6 X 2.2cu ft bales for top dressing, spread manually. Coverage was uneven, and the areas covered had much better germination than the uncovered areas. I feel I could have gone a little heavier, but it's hard to tell. However, using the peat roller, I top dressed last fall's reno this spring. I used 3 X 3 cu ft bales and had good coverage. For my fall 2017 1500 Sq ft front reno, I will have plenty of peat on hand and will get 100% coverage on the reno area. Any extra will top dress the back.

greenrebellion
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Re: Greenrebellion's Fall 2017 Renovation

Post by greenrebellion » June 17th, 2017, 1:44 pm

HoosierDaddy wrote:
June 17th, 2017, 1:08 pm
HLG- I only got the peat roller this Spring. Wish I would have had it for my 2016 reno. But I will make full use of it for 2017.

Greenrebellion- for my 3500 sq ft reno I used 6 X 2.2cu ft bales for top dressing, spread manually. Coverage was uneven, and the areas covered had much better germination than the uncovered areas. I feel I could have gone a little heavier, but it's hard to tell. However, using the peat roller, I top dressed last fall's reno this spring. I used 3 X 3 cu ft bales and had good coverage. For my fall 2017 1500 Sq ft front reno, I will have plenty of peat on hand and will get 100% coverage on the reno area. Any extra will top dress the back.
This is very helpful. I have found some 3.8 cu ft bales and so it sounds like I could easily get away with 15 or so bales and have more than enough for my 12K sq ft. Thanks for your post.

greenrebellion
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Re: Greenrebellion's Fall 2017 Renovation

Post by greenrebellion » June 21st, 2017, 6:49 pm

I am kind of at a loss as to how to proceed this year as I figured by now that KBG would've started growing to some degree. I took a few snapshots of my current yard and it is highly disturbing to me that the KBG planted last year in many spots refuses to grow. And in the spots where it is growing, it is doing so at an incredibly slow pace.

We went several weeks without rain and had warm weather, I cut down on watering to bare minimum and managed to kill off a lot of the Poa. Since Poa represented most of my grass and the KBG isn't growing, my lot now looks fairly dead now.

I can grow TONS of different grassy weeds, I can grow all kinds of broadleaf weeds, but KBG WILL NOT GROW. Obviously my concern is what is the point in renovating and planting KBG again and expecting a different result this time? Pics below and an updated soil test was posted in the Soil Management sub forum...if anyone has ANY ideas, please I am all ears. If I am going to renovate, I should order the seed ASAP. But I just don't want to drop $400 on seed if I am assured to end up with the same issue in August.



Pic 1 showing some KBG that is about an inch tall at the most and has yet to grow and has yet to be mowed due to its short stature (I'm mowing at 1.5"). The grass looks healthy and the root system is 3-4" deep minimum.
https://s30.postimg.cc/3quot9qip/IMG_2 ... 181147.jpg

Pic 2 another good example like the above of grass that is about 3/4 inch tall and will not grow.
https://s18.postimg.cc/jblbnpel5/IMG_2 ... 181209.jpg

Pic 3 shows an area of KBG that is growing but its overwhelmed by dead Poa and other grassy weeds and furthermore, it does not grow very fast. If it wasn't for the weeds growing rapidly, I could probably get by mowing my yard every 3 to 4 weeks.
https://s8.postimg.cc/em4pchhz9/IMG_20 ... 182020.jpg

Pics 4 shows one of my most common weeds, it grows well and heartily throughout the yard showing that the soil isn't sterile. Looks like a tall fescue weed to me.
https://s17.postimg.cc/5ycpm4a1r/IMG_2 ... 182056.jpg

ligrass
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Re: Greenrebellion's Fall 2017 Renovation

Post by ligrass » June 22nd, 2017, 11:09 am

I tried to offer advice in the other thread but you never responded. Why are you dead set on KBG in the first place is what I'm curious about? It definitely has the advantage of spreading but PRG is a MILLION times easier to grow and manage (particularly if you're dealing with a poa infestation).. that stuff will come up right along with your KBG again. if I put up 2 side-by-sides of KBG and PRG, you probably wouldn't even be able to tell which was which. You might even think the PRG is nicer.

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Re: Greenrebellion's Fall 2017 Renovation

Post by Paul » June 22nd, 2017, 11:10 am

If it was my lawn I would renovate a small portion this year to make sure it was successful before doing the entire yard. Some of the pictures you show that you state are KBG, are suspect for me. Maybe it's the close up, but the blades look awful wide for KBG, especially in Pic 2. I would renovate about 2K sqft of lawn and try it. The seed wont be too expensive since you would only need about 6 pounds of seed. I would also kill it now and fallow until mid August when you plant.

I feel your pain, but you need to prove to yourself you can be successful in a small area before doing your entire yard over.


greenrebellion
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Re: Greenrebellion's Fall 2017 Renovation

Post by greenrebellion » June 22nd, 2017, 12:37 pm

ligrass wrote:
June 22nd, 2017, 11:09 am
I tried to offer advice in the other thread but you never responded. Why are you dead set on KBG in the first place is what I'm curious about? It definitely has the advantage of spreading but PRG is a MILLION times easier to grow and manage (particularly if you're dealing with a poa infestation).. that stuff will come up right along with your KBG again. if I put up 2 side-by-sides of KBG and PRG, you probably wouldn't even be able to tell which was which. You might even think the PRG is nicer.
KBG seems like a richer darker green so it is my preference, but at this point I just want a lawn, any kind of lawn will do so I'm open to the suggestion. Are you saying do some sort of a KBG / PRG mix so that I have some advantage from spreading or would you go pure PRG and overseed the gaps I end up with next year? I completely agree with you that if I choose to go with pure KBG again, I am going to end up with Poa taking over...but the Poa only became a HUGE issue because the KBG never established and grew to compete with weeds.

Paul wrote:
June 22nd, 2017, 11:10 am
If it was my lawn I would renovate a small portion this year to make sure it was successful before doing the entire yard. Some of the pictures you show that you state are KBG, are suspect for me. Maybe it's the close up, but the blades look awful wide for KBG, especially in Pic 2. I would renovate about 2K sqft of lawn and try it. The seed wont be too expensive since you would only need about 6 pounds of seed. I would also kill it now and fallow until mid August when you plant.

I feel your pain, but you need to prove to yourself you can be successful in a small area before doing your entire yard over.
If I go with KBG, I think this is what I'll have to do as it is too risky for me to renovate the whole thing and end up with a second failed renovation. The front yard is about 3K, so I could just do that. If I go with PRG, I have more confidence it will take and would probably renovate my whole lot.

I'm fairly certain that Pic 2 is KBG, it is a very close in shot which is distorting the picture a bit.

greenrebellion
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Re: Greenrebellion's Fall 2017 Renovation

Post by greenrebellion » June 22nd, 2017, 5:52 pm

Following up on my last post from a few hours ago, I've done a lot of reading about PRG for the past few hours.

I am in borderline zone 5b / 6a. Temps can go below 0 for brief periods but Lake Michigan moderates the temps a bit. Snow cover however can easily span 60+ days so I'd be worried about snow mold. Guess I can overseed every spring but doesn't that make pre-emergent app timing difficult?.

Also side yards of the house gets 5-6 hours of sun once you get to fall so not sure if that is an issue (I mean its kind of an issue with all grass, but I put Bewitched in my KBG mix because of better shade tolerance).

I would use Hogan seed and get a 50/50 mix of Bandalore & Derby Xtreme cultivars (using Derby mainly for the better shade tolerance). Both seem to be dark green & high quality turf type perennial ryegrass.

This is all hypothetical, just throwing out what I'm thinking at this point. I've got another week or so to decide before I'd like to get a seed order in.

Tempted to go buy some PRG from Home Depot just to test it out on a small area though I imagine it will have difficulty establishing in July. I have some more noodling to do, really at a loss here as to how to proceed but at least this is another option to consider.

seiyafan
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Re: Greenrebellion's Fall 2017 Renovation

Post by seiyafan » June 22nd, 2017, 6:20 pm

How often do you see -10F at your place in the winter?

greenrebellion
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Re: Greenrebellion's Fall 2017 Renovation

Post by greenrebellion » June 22nd, 2017, 7:06 pm

seiyafan wrote:
June 22nd, 2017, 6:20 pm
How often do you see -10F at your place in the winter?
An average winter will have 2 or 3 days with low temperatures at or below -10F when a big cold front sweeps through.

seiyafan
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Re: Greenrebellion's Fall 2017 Renovation

Post by seiyafan » June 22nd, 2017, 8:30 pm

Then forget about PRG, it's not for your climate. You are always welcome to test it though.

greenrebellion
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Re: Greenrebellion's Fall 2017 Renovation

Post by greenrebellion » June 22nd, 2017, 8:45 pm

Ok, back to the drawing board.

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Re: Greenrebellion's Fall 2017 Renovation

Post by greenrebellion » June 22nd, 2017, 10:24 pm

Ok...I'm just going to do Bewitched in the front yard and side yards (4K sq feet). This will keep seed cost to around $150 or so. Then if it works, I'll redo the backyard next year.

If it doesn't work, then maybe I will throw down PRG in Spring since it establishes quickly and then I can see how it does over the following winter.

Andy has responded to my soil test thread, so I'll do what he recommended which will build P/K and add Boron...and I'll plug away on BLSC lawn conditioner and hopefully those factors combined with a long fallow period will improve my odds of success this year.

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andy10917
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Re: Greenrebellion's Fall 2017 Renovation

Post by andy10917 » June 22nd, 2017, 10:28 pm

I'm just going to do Bewitched in the front yard and side yards (4K sq feet). This will keep seed cost to around $150 or so.
Where are you buying seed? I'm 99% sure my son paid $210 for 25 lbs of Sod Quality Bewitched.

greenrebellion
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Re: Greenrebellion's Fall 2017 Renovation

Post by greenrebellion » June 22nd, 2017, 10:31 pm

andy10917 wrote:
June 22nd, 2017, 10:28 pm
I'm just going to do Bewitched in the front yard and side yards (4K sq feet). This will keep seed cost to around $150 or so.
Where are you buying seed? I'm 99% sure my son paid $210 for 25 lbs of Sod Quality Bewitched.
I was looking at seed superstore. Given your comment, I will have to shop around a bit more.

edenl01
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Re: Greenrebellion's Fall 2017 Renovation

Post by edenl01 » June 22nd, 2017, 10:36 pm

Bought from preferred seed. 10 pounds was $112.00 shipped. I asked for the lab reports from the seed analysis and they will send that as well if you want.

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andy10917
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Re: Greenrebellion's Fall 2017 Renovation

Post by andy10917 » June 22nd, 2017, 10:51 pm

Yup. My son got it at Preferred, too.

greenrebellion
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Re: Greenrebellion's Fall 2017 Renovation

Post by greenrebellion » June 22nd, 2017, 10:52 pm

edenl01 wrote:
June 22nd, 2017, 10:36 pm
Bought from preferred seed. 10 pounds was $112.00 shipped. I asked for the lab reports from the seed analysis and they will send that as well if you want.
Perfect, thanks. I will order tomorrow.

HoosierDaddy
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Re: Greenrebellion's Fall 2017 Renovation

Post by HoosierDaddy » June 23rd, 2017, 1:44 pm

Drive down to Indy, I'll round up g-man and HLG... we'll have a beer or 2, then get you some bewitched from Prairie Creek for $6/lb.

greenrebellion
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Re: Greenrebellion's Fall 2017 Renovation

Post by greenrebellion » June 23rd, 2017, 8:24 pm

HoosierDaddy wrote:
June 23rd, 2017, 1:44 pm
Drive down to Indy, I'll round up g-man and HLG... we'll have a beer or 2, then get you some bewitched from Prairie Creek for $6/lb.
Already bought it, count me in for next year when I need 25 pounds of seed ;).


Today I dropped 10 pounds per K of 10/10/10 fertilizer & also dropped Twenty Mule Team Borax down at 3 tbsp per K.

So I was walking through the backyard taking a closer look at my weeds today and noticed :shock: that what I thought was a billion weedy fescue plants back there turns out to be a quack infestation of epic proportions. Given that I decided to delay renovating the backyard till next year, does anyone have any ideas how to control quack in the meantime?

Things I've considered:
- Spot spraying...but it would take a day and a half as there are thousands of them
- Nuke the whole thing...but I don't necessarily want to leave it barren back there for erosion reasons.
- Leave it be and let it do its thing...but I'm concerned that it is going to be impossible to get rid of during the fallow period next year, the stuff is unbelievably persistent.
- Renovate the backyard this year...really would like to avoid this option as I don't have great confidence that my front yard renovation is going to be a roaring success.

greenrebellion
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Re: Greenrebellion's Fall 2017 Renovation

Post by greenrebellion » June 26th, 2017, 8:12 am

I bought a weed wick...going to spend a couple hours on weekends in the coming weeks trying to spot treat my grassy weeds (mainly focused on eliminating the quack).

Also, I am going to pick up some Prodiamine at some point and apply that in the backyard in late August. Now that the Poa Annua has mostly died off due to dry conditions in June, may as well try to keep it from coming back this fall which in turn will keep the seed head count down as I prepare for a 2018 renovation in the backyard (assuming against all odds that the front yard is successful somehow this year).

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