2017 S.E. Mass. Small all KBG Reno...

[northeastlawn]

So I think things are coming along; the night patrol shows something popping up just about everywhere, even if you can't see it during the day. I have a few dense spots that seem like they have way too much seed, probably a result of the wash out and my Day 2 attempt to fix it. But I have to stay the course, one more week to go before I can evaluate it.

I hate to say I still am not sure how to tell that I am out of sprout and pout. I'm not sure what I am supposed to to look for, but not even going to try until I get to at least Day 21.

Here are some day 12 pictures....

[andy10917]

S&P is easy to spot once you've seen it once or twice. The new grass just looks like it isn't growing for 1-3 weeks. Drives you nuts. The temptation is to kick it into gear with fertilizer - that's exactly the wrong thing to do.

[northeastlawn]

Day 16 not much has changed from the last few days, things are slowing down. A few dense areas starting to show up and a few thin areas. One more week of watering and Ill see where I am.

[northeastlawn]

I'm approaching day 19, a lot of the new sprouts are just sitting there. I noticed some of the grass has split in two, but still kind of small, not over 2-3" yet. The bare spot in the middle of the yard is a concern, grass is coming up, buts its small and not as dense as the rest of the lawn. I have like an 1 1/2" of rain schedule Wednesday, guess Ill evaluate it all Friday and see where I am at.

[turf_toes]

Looks like a typical day 19 lawn renovation.

Keep up the good work.

[Jackpine]

Agree with TT, looking good

[northeastlawn]

Thanks...

We have 1 1/2" to 2" of rain on the way tomorrow, I am keeping my fingers crossed its not that bad. As longs as its over 1-2 days I hope the grass is well enough a long to not cause much damage. The yard is pretty flat.

A good warm Saturday and Sunday and hopefully the last stubborn thins spots come in. Then again maybe the hard rain will wash away the seedling, the worrying isn't over yet....

[northeastlawn]

So here are some photos of my status of Day 25. I am watering about 3 times a day. The plan is to maybe change to watering once a day at Day 30 and respray Tenacity.



A lot of the borders in the shade didn't come in so well, they got a ton of worm casting.

I also have a spot in the middle of the yard that came in thin. Which is odd because it got plenty of water from overlapping zones, it was something I couldn't help. So not sure why the middle of the yard came in thin.



The picture from the porch says it all, but from the ground I have a bunch of grass out of S&P. Which seems early and Im afraid to put down the tenacity at day 30. My gust is telling me its POA, because the thin areas are where the POA always seems to come up every year.

[northeastlawn]

I think I did OK germination wise so far, and going to give it a few more days, but here are a few areas that didn't fair so well, this first area is my only dead spot sprinkler wise and probably doesn't get a lot of water because the shrubs over hang it....

[northeastlawn]

So this area is the exact opposite of the first problem area. The impulse sprinklers kind of make a mess close to the sprinkler head. Combine the shade and too much water close the sprinkler head and maybe too much water killed off the seeds. The worms are all over this area of the yard, anything that comes up is probably under a worm casting....

[northeastlawn]

Last problem area, basically all around the borders. The picture doesn't really show how there is a 1' strip by the borders that didn't germinate as good as the other areas. Not sure if it was shade from the trees, worm castings, or the sprinklers gave them too much water...

I am hoping the grass spreads to the borders over time....

[SNOWBOB11]

Looking good! I think the grass will spread and fill in to the border for sure. Just one thing, I see you said you were thinking about an app of tenacity at day 30. I've read that the first folar app of tenacity can go down at 30 days from germination and not 30 days from seed down. Not sure if that's what you meant but just thought I'd point it out so you don't apply it too early by mistake. Either way keep up the good work.

[northeastlawn]

Thanks for the reply....

I have read things both ways, but it seems like standard practice to re-apply tenacity after 30 days for a lot of people. In my case with a high chance of POA I was going to take the chance.

Maybe I need to do some more reading, but I did read that tenacity was ok on KBG and to ignore the 30 day rule on the label...

Im just scared what that an application of tenacity is going to show a ton of POA, some of the grass seemed to grow out of S&P pretty quickly...

[smast16]

I just did my 30 day Tenacity App on Friday, and i went with 30 days from seed down. Now i'm worried i sprayed to early. Thanks, just what i needed was another thing to worry about.... lol

[JohnP]

I bet you will be fine, although here's what the label says:

Apply at grass seeding or close to seeding for best performance. Avoid spraying on newly germinated turfgrass plants. Wait until the newly germinated turf has been mowed two times or four weeks after emergence (whichever is longer) before making a postemergence application.

[northeastlawn]

Thanks for the label info, I am unsure now what I should do on the backyard, but in the front hell strips I may a have a problem.

I used a SSS shade mix that was mostly FF with some bewitched KBG thats designed for shade. I always just used tenacity as a pre-m on my Northern mix over-seeds, not realizing the labels says it effects FF. I always assumed the FF in the lawn was a casualty of my battle with POA.

I have some patchy areas on the hell strip reno, and I just put more seed down in. No tenacity as I was trying to be careful of the FF. I am wondering if it was the Tenacity that caused the problem in the germination and not the shade?

So in the backyard if I don't put down tenacity I will be 30 days away of putting down dimension on October 1st. I was counting on the 30 days more of Tenacity to keep the POA down. My backyard is POA prone. Not sure what to do...

[JohnP]

I don't know enough or have enough experience to answer your questions. My suggestion would only be to go scientific method on it. If you've been doing it with little success try without. See what happens. Maybe someone more experienced can chime in.

[ken-n-nancy]

I am wondering if it was the Tenacity that caused the problem in the germination and not the shade?

My personal experiences with shade have been that shade doesn't impede germination of grass seed, at least as long as the watering of the shady area isn't excessive (shady areas need far less watering, since the water evaporates away far more slowly). I haven't tried it, but I think grass seed would germinate just fine in the dark. (Anybody tried that?)

Rather, newly germinated grass in deep shade will put up that one blade in search of light, but will run out of energy when the "food" stored in the seed is depleted (not very long for KBG, but a bit longer for fescue with larger seeds) and then die off.

So, if you're not getting visible germination in the shade, the problem isn't the shade, but something else, like maybe overwatering, or maybe a remaining pre-emergent, or too much Tenacity, or ...

Fine fescue is less tolerant of mesotrione (Tenacity) than either KBG or PRG. Even established fine fescue can be adversely affected by rates that KBG and/or PRG will shrug off. For an illustration of what too much mesotrione (Tenacity) will do to fine fescue, see slide 24 of Tenacity: A New Herbicide for Turfgrass Establishment from Washington State University.

When I seeded a 90% FF, 10% KBG mix in my shady back yard a few years ago, I used no Tenacity because of the warning on the label.

[ken-n-nancy]

I haven't tried it, but I think grass seed would germinate just fine in the dark. (Anybody tried that?)

FYI, a google search turned up the following posting in a user review, where somebody did an at-home "research project" which included growing some grass in 100% darkness. Looks like it germinated just fine in the dark! Didn't have much of a future, though...

User review on the home depot site - search for "darkness"

Guess which pot in the below picture was grown in complete darkness?

[northeastlawn]

So here are a few shots of Day 36 post seeding. Its still killing me how bad the lawn looks, I really thought it would have snapped out of S&P by now. It seems like the grass is hanging by a thread. I keep waiting for something to happen and it start spreading over all the worm castings everywhere.

I also put down the 30 day Tenacity app about 6 days ago, I was on the fence, but it seemed the right thing to do with all the broad leaf weeds coming up.

The Tenacity seems to be bleaching some of it after 6 days. I am not good enough to tell which bleaching is POA and which is normal KBG. It is more bleaching than I'd like, but less than what I expected. The bleached grass seems to be in the middle of the leaves, none it bleached all totally white, but I have a few more days for the Tenacity to take full effect.

I am starting to worry about the problem area in the middle and around the borders. Worm castings may be awesome for the soil, but they have sure drowned out some seedlings I seeded extra on the borders and its almost like all those seedlings got buried by the worm piles.

The forecast is finally for sunny weather Sunday and Monday after a week of rain and humidity. October 1st I will put down 0.25#N/K of Urea mixed with about 6# of bay State to help spread it. I only have 3 weeks left and I hope most of the lawn is out off sprout and pout by Oct. 1st. I figure I can get 3 fertilizer apps in if it seems the KBG is out of S&P.