Lawn reno on a shoestring budget! Please do not flame!
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Re: Lawn reno on a shoestring budget! Please do not flame!
Or do I use the Scott's Starter + mesotrione instead of the Lesco starter and then spring for the peat? What would you do?
Decisions...decisions...
Decisions...decisions...
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Re: Lawn reno on a shoestring budget! Please do not flame!
Andy, I did some reading on the forum last night and I'm guessing the *MUST BE DONE OUTDOORS* thing is getting some of the SoilMoist granular from orange-box or blue-box and destroying the significant others blender grinding them into a fine dust thing?
Or have you discovered something new in the intervening time?
I'm really torn between putting my last $150 towards tenacity + surfactant + dye + shipping or peat moss. The soil is so terrible, that I'm not even sure why I'm wasting my time. Everywhere I drop a pick-axe or a spade, 1/2" down there is unscreened fill - bricks, highways, pavement, asphalt, iron slag, boulders. No way this "lawn" can do well. Maybe I should just be pouding it with annual rye every spring until the house sells.
The right way to do this would be to bring in $2000-$2500 worth of screened topsoil and spread it and grade it. Then seed, apply peat, and spray Tenacity. There is no getting around these massive structural issues. I feel like I'm probably tossing money away. But - the goal is to have grass and not a forest of weeds. I've already got Lesco seed and starter and I've spent a whole week digging up the worst boulders. I'm a bit discouraged, as reality is sinking in, but I will not quit now.
I'm going to do what I can with what I've got! I wish there was some 80/20 rule with grass! 80% of the results with 20% of the effort and money.
Or have you discovered something new in the intervening time?
I'm really torn between putting my last $150 towards tenacity + surfactant + dye + shipping or peat moss. The soil is so terrible, that I'm not even sure why I'm wasting my time. Everywhere I drop a pick-axe or a spade, 1/2" down there is unscreened fill - bricks, highways, pavement, asphalt, iron slag, boulders. No way this "lawn" can do well. Maybe I should just be pouding it with annual rye every spring until the house sells.
The right way to do this would be to bring in $2000-$2500 worth of screened topsoil and spread it and grade it. Then seed, apply peat, and spray Tenacity. There is no getting around these massive structural issues. I feel like I'm probably tossing money away. But - the goal is to have grass and not a forest of weeds. I've already got Lesco seed and starter and I've spent a whole week digging up the worst boulders. I'm a bit discouraged, as reality is sinking in, but I will not quit now.
I'm going to do what I can with what I've got! I wish there was some 80/20 rule with grass! 80% of the results with 20% of the effort and money.
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Re: Lawn reno on a shoestring budget! Please do not flame!
Honestly, if youre just looking to sell next year, I'd skip the tenacity. You can get some weed killers for very cheap and just tackle the broad leaf weeds later. Grassy weeds are grassy, and will blend in enough to not take away from the curb appeal. From what you said, you're looking for density to raise curb appeal. I think peat moss will give you more bang for your buck there than stopping a few weeds.
- HoosierLawnGnome
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Re: Lawn reno on a shoestring budget! Please do not flame!
The Scott's starter with mesotrione at seed down is a great option. Then use the lesco later as recommended.
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Re: Lawn reno on a shoestring budget! Please do not flame!
I took a bunch of pics. Will upload tonight.
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Re: Lawn reno on a shoestring budget! Please do not flame!
Just food for thought. If I recall the price correctly, a bag of Scott's with meso is like $30 or $35 and labeled for 5k. A bottle of tenacity is around $60 or $65 and will last you a while.
On the otherhand, if your parents are selling the house, that changes the level of effort I'd be willing to put in though, especially if that involves digging up rock.
On the otherhand, if your parents are selling the house, that changes the level of effort I'd be willing to put in though, especially if that involves digging up rock.
- andy10917
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Re: Lawn reno on a shoestring budget! Please do not flame!
Yup. But it ain't the blender - it's breathing in the dust of something the expands 200X in the presence of water, which (no surprise) is in your lungs. That would be an other-than-optimal way to go...Andy, I did some reading on the forum last night and I'm guessing the *MUST BE DONE OUTDOORS* thing is getting some of the SoilMoist granular from orange-box or blue-box and destroying the significant others blender grinding them into a fine dust thing?
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Re: Lawn reno on a shoestring budget! Please do not flame!
My lungs already have 10 years of smoking in them. I quit last year, though. I finally managed to do it. I definitely do not need more crap in there gumming up the works...I can only imagine what breathing those little particles in must feel like once they start expanding. Bronchitis from hell that never goes away?
Just got in from working outside. Going to grab some food and will throw up some pictures. The house will be sold in approximately 2 years I'd estimate. So, I'm willing to put in a fair amount of work (because I have a level of personal pride in the projects that I undertake - I kind of never know when to say when). Also, I'm using some of the skills and information I'm learning for later on when I have my own house and it's the "big leagues" and I'm going for a yard that is even half as nice as the ones you guys all have!
Just got in from working outside. Going to grab some food and will throw up some pictures. The house will be sold in approximately 2 years I'd estimate. So, I'm willing to put in a fair amount of work (because I have a level of personal pride in the projects that I undertake - I kind of never know when to say when). Also, I'm using some of the skills and information I'm learning for later on when I have my own house and it's the "big leagues" and I'm going for a yard that is even half as nice as the ones you guys all have!
- ezael
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Re: Lawn reno on a shoestring budget! Please do not flame!
Tenacity all the way. Can also be used later for future projects.
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Re: Lawn reno on a shoestring budget! Please do not flame!
A collection of images I snapped quickly earlier today. I haven't had time to annotate anything. They are "as is". It's mostly self-explanatory I'd say.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bw2KO ... lpDTkJ5dWM
~6250 sq. ft. of RU'ed front lower lawn - only green left seems to be this tenacious cinquefoil (seems to take 3wks to full brown out after RU based on what I've been observing so far). Look at some of these tiny little pebbles I've been digging out !!
~900 sq. ft. of shaded wedge on south side of lot up against wood line running along driveway
~1100 sq. ft. of front top lawn adjacent to house and created by railroad tie retaining wall
~4200 sq. ft. of backyard - some areas part to full sun and others deep shade - pics of two black walnut trees that obliterate all attempts to grow anything under them thanks to their juglone production
Random pictures of my tomatoes, peppers, and front flower border of annuals. I started every plant from seed in March under grow lights indoors. Also a pic of the Dahlia's at midday (at their saddest looking where they naturally droop their leaves to conserve water). They got started about 2 weeks too late this year and aren't in the optimal site for their growing - and thus are not blooming yet. It's also my first year growing Dahlia's! The front annuals are Marigold - Hot Pak Mix and Zinnia - Short Stuff Mix. I bordered each compartment with everbearing Alpine strawberries from Europe, but learned that they definitely do much better with morning sun and afternoon shade! Nevertheless, they crank out the berries - more than I want to even eat - but I feel they lack sweetness due to the excessive heat of that western facing late afternoon full sun area. The tomatoes are cranking away and so are the Jimmy Nardello peppers and Jalapenos. Sorry for getting a bit off topic. Just thought some might want to see what else I'm up to.
Seems like mostly fescue has taken over in a lot of areas - probably due to the sandy, rocky, shady nature of most of the areas and the lack of irrigation. The original "lawn" is 20+ years old. I didn't have an issue with platains or compaction until I put down 40#/1k of dolomitic lime last fall and I realize now I probably should have used calcitic lime - RE: Albrecht, floccuation, etc.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bw2KO ... lpDTkJ5dWM
~6250 sq. ft. of RU'ed front lower lawn - only green left seems to be this tenacious cinquefoil (seems to take 3wks to full brown out after RU based on what I've been observing so far). Look at some of these tiny little pebbles I've been digging out !!
~900 sq. ft. of shaded wedge on south side of lot up against wood line running along driveway
~1100 sq. ft. of front top lawn adjacent to house and created by railroad tie retaining wall
~4200 sq. ft. of backyard - some areas part to full sun and others deep shade - pics of two black walnut trees that obliterate all attempts to grow anything under them thanks to their juglone production
Random pictures of my tomatoes, peppers, and front flower border of annuals. I started every plant from seed in March under grow lights indoors. Also a pic of the Dahlia's at midday (at their saddest looking where they naturally droop their leaves to conserve water). They got started about 2 weeks too late this year and aren't in the optimal site for their growing - and thus are not blooming yet. It's also my first year growing Dahlia's! The front annuals are Marigold - Hot Pak Mix and Zinnia - Short Stuff Mix. I bordered each compartment with everbearing Alpine strawberries from Europe, but learned that they definitely do much better with morning sun and afternoon shade! Nevertheless, they crank out the berries - more than I want to even eat - but I feel they lack sweetness due to the excessive heat of that western facing late afternoon full sun area. The tomatoes are cranking away and so are the Jimmy Nardello peppers and Jalapenos. Sorry for getting a bit off topic. Just thought some might want to see what else I'm up to.
Seems like mostly fescue has taken over in a lot of areas - probably due to the sandy, rocky, shady nature of most of the areas and the lack of irrigation. The original "lawn" is 20+ years old. I didn't have an issue with platains or compaction until I put down 40#/1k of dolomitic lime last fall and I realize now I probably should have used calcitic lime - RE: Albrecht, floccuation, etc.
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Re: Lawn reno on a shoestring budget! Please do not flame!
Noticed a problem with using Tenacity/mesotrione as I started to dig deeper into the labels tonight. I'm sure this has come up here on the forum, but my searching hasn't yielded me any answer as of yet.
Tenacity/mesotrione not to be used at seeding when FF exceeds 20% of mixture. My Lesco Metro Mix is:
50% PR, 15% CRF, 15% CF, 20% KBG
I realize this is @ the 5 fl. oz. per acre Tenacity (or 0.156 lb. ai per acre) application rate. Most of you here recommend a 4 fl. oz. per acre app rate. And from the university test plot results I looked at, the reduction in FF growth @ 0.156 lb. ai per acre at seed-down wasn't too terrible (subjective). At 4 fl. oz. per acre (0.125 lb. ai per acre) - obviously one would expect even less reduction in growth, no?
Anyone see an issue here? Would you still use Tenacity @ 4 fl. oz. per acre or Scott's Starter w/ mesotrione @ bag rate (0.156 lb. ai per acre equivalent to 5 fl. oz. of Tenacity per acre) at seed down?
I think I'm going to mix up some RU in a tank sprayer and hit anything still green and growing about 24-48 hrs before seeding day as well, based upon what I've been reading in other reno posts - just for good measure.
Tenacity/mesotrione not to be used at seeding when FF exceeds 20% of mixture. My Lesco Metro Mix is:
50% PR, 15% CRF, 15% CF, 20% KBG
I realize this is @ the 5 fl. oz. per acre Tenacity (or 0.156 lb. ai per acre) application rate. Most of you here recommend a 4 fl. oz. per acre app rate. And from the university test plot results I looked at, the reduction in FF growth @ 0.156 lb. ai per acre at seed-down wasn't too terrible (subjective). At 4 fl. oz. per acre (0.125 lb. ai per acre) - obviously one would expect even less reduction in growth, no?
Anyone see an issue here? Would you still use Tenacity @ 4 fl. oz. per acre or Scott's Starter w/ mesotrione @ bag rate (0.156 lb. ai per acre equivalent to 5 fl. oz. of Tenacity per acre) at seed down?
I think I'm going to mix up some RU in a tank sprayer and hit anything still green and growing about 24-48 hrs before seeding day as well, based upon what I've been reading in other reno posts - just for good measure.
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Re: Lawn reno on a shoestring budget! Please do not flame!
I would go with the 4oz / acre rate with the liquid tenacity if you're going to use it. You have way more control over how much goes down where.
- HoosierLawnGnome
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Re: Lawn reno on a shoestring budget! Please do not flame!
So far, to recap for all and also for myself:
* Hit the lower 6.5k w/ RU twice (about a week apart) for a good kill. I used a hose end sprayer.
* Did all the tree work and removed any small trees or limbs that were shading out area. Significant trees were left standing. Removed anything below 10' off the lawn surface. Cut down about 10 trees.
* Dug up any rocks, boulders, unscreened fill garbage (bricks, asphalt, concrete roadway slabs, etc) that were poking through the surface *by hand with a pick axe and using levers and fulcrums - I never want to do this again*. Some pieces must have weighed ca. 300 lbs.
* Backfilled all of the holes created w/ screened topsoil (5 cu yds bought in from Grillo in CT @ $33/cu yd plus delivery fee from Meriden, CT) and graded w/ bow rake
* Rented Classen TR-20 power rake w/ standard flail blades and de-thatched at middle setting. Raked up thatch and debris w/ leaf rake. Two people took ca. 5 hrs of work. 1 hr for the power raking. 4 hours for raking the thatch and removing it.
Where I am now:
I have, essentially, bare dirt with a nice 1/8-1/4" layer of loose soil and some nice grooves left by the leaf rake tines. There are some bits of dead grass that stayed rooted and weren't torn out by the power rake, but the soil surface is well exposed. The power rake did a nice job at harrowing the surface and tearing up the dead material. I will have no issue with seed to soil contact now! Now - MOISTURE. I should have ordered some of the SoilMoist seed coat or made some as per Andy. Too late now...Next time I renovate, I will have that on order. I'm learning a lot as I go. Learning by doing - but boy, do I have a lot left to learn! I'm trying to tell myself what I see Andy say to a lot of people here - "Don't over-complicate it". Basically - seed to soil contact and proper moisture levels for approx. 21 days or so are really critical, is what I think I've distilled it all down to!
My plan:
1) Spread Lesco Metro Mix (50% PR, 30% FF, 20% KBG) @ 3#/1k sq. ft. twice @ right angles for a total coverage of 6#/1k
2) Drop Lesco Starter fertilizer @ 1# P / 1k
3) Lightly rake everything in using back of leaf rake
4) Spread 1/8-1/4" layer of peat (I have 38 compressed cu. ft. - expands roughly 2x iirc)
5) Water it in really well tomorrow evening (Friday 25th Aug 2017)
6) Begin irrigation schedule. 10 mins per zone on the sprinklers. 6 zones each. Will irrigate @ 10AM, 2PM, 4PM to begin with and adjust as needed based on peat moisture retention and weather condx.
Questions:
1) Do you guys think this is a pretty decent/reasonable plan based on what I've described and you see in the pics?
2) How the hell do I spread peat without a compost roller? This is going to be terrible to do all 6.5k by hand. Are there any good methods to do it by hand that any of you all have figured out and would like to share?
I really appreciate you all taking the time to look at my posts, read them and help me out a bit as I go.
* Hit the lower 6.5k w/ RU twice (about a week apart) for a good kill. I used a hose end sprayer.
* Did all the tree work and removed any small trees or limbs that were shading out area. Significant trees were left standing. Removed anything below 10' off the lawn surface. Cut down about 10 trees.
* Dug up any rocks, boulders, unscreened fill garbage (bricks, asphalt, concrete roadway slabs, etc) that were poking through the surface *by hand with a pick axe and using levers and fulcrums - I never want to do this again*. Some pieces must have weighed ca. 300 lbs.
* Backfilled all of the holes created w/ screened topsoil (5 cu yds bought in from Grillo in CT @ $33/cu yd plus delivery fee from Meriden, CT) and graded w/ bow rake
* Rented Classen TR-20 power rake w/ standard flail blades and de-thatched at middle setting. Raked up thatch and debris w/ leaf rake. Two people took ca. 5 hrs of work. 1 hr for the power raking. 4 hours for raking the thatch and removing it.
Where I am now:
I have, essentially, bare dirt with a nice 1/8-1/4" layer of loose soil and some nice grooves left by the leaf rake tines. There are some bits of dead grass that stayed rooted and weren't torn out by the power rake, but the soil surface is well exposed. The power rake did a nice job at harrowing the surface and tearing up the dead material. I will have no issue with seed to soil contact now! Now - MOISTURE. I should have ordered some of the SoilMoist seed coat or made some as per Andy. Too late now...Next time I renovate, I will have that on order. I'm learning a lot as I go. Learning by doing - but boy, do I have a lot left to learn! I'm trying to tell myself what I see Andy say to a lot of people here - "Don't over-complicate it". Basically - seed to soil contact and proper moisture levels for approx. 21 days or so are really critical, is what I think I've distilled it all down to!
My plan:
1) Spread Lesco Metro Mix (50% PR, 30% FF, 20% KBG) @ 3#/1k sq. ft. twice @ right angles for a total coverage of 6#/1k
2) Drop Lesco Starter fertilizer @ 1# P / 1k
3) Lightly rake everything in using back of leaf rake
4) Spread 1/8-1/4" layer of peat (I have 38 compressed cu. ft. - expands roughly 2x iirc)
5) Water it in really well tomorrow evening (Friday 25th Aug 2017)
6) Begin irrigation schedule. 10 mins per zone on the sprinklers. 6 zones each. Will irrigate @ 10AM, 2PM, 4PM to begin with and adjust as needed based on peat moisture retention and weather condx.
Questions:
1) Do you guys think this is a pretty decent/reasonable plan based on what I've described and you see in the pics?
2) How the hell do I spread peat without a compost roller? This is going to be terrible to do all 6.5k by hand. Are there any good methods to do it by hand that any of you all have figured out and would like to share?
I really appreciate you all taking the time to look at my posts, read them and help me out a bit as I go.
- Othertime
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Re: Lawn reno on a shoestring budget! Please do not flame!
Do 1,2,4,5,6. Call it a day. Throw the peat up in the air and make it rain baby. You have enough pr that something will come up. Dont overthink....but again this is a best lawn for. Ha. Goodluck
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Re: Lawn reno on a shoestring budget! Please do not flame!
Skip #3 as othertime mentioned. Walk around with a wheelbarrow flinging peat moss, then rake it in a bit to even it out. I don't think it will be too crazy time consuming. Did you already pick up the fertilizer? Because you could use Scott's starter which contains Mesotrione (tenacity) since I don't think you picked up a bottle of it. Just something to consider. Otherwise, plan looks good. Nice job getting this prepped.
LINK
LINK
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Re: Lawn reno on a shoestring budget! Please do not flame!
Thanks all for your suggestions. Hey greenrebellion, I decided to pass on Tenacity or mesotrione because of the fine fescues in the mix. I'm just going to fight off the broadleafs next season w/ Trimec.
At least, that's what I've been thinking. No idea if it's the best decision...but...I made it.
At least, that's what I've been thinking. No idea if it's the best decision...but...I made it.
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Re: Lawn reno on a shoestring budget! Please do not flame!
There is also the Scotts Starter Fertilizer with Mesotrione as an option for pre-M control without buying liquid Tenacity. I'm not sure if there's a cost savings, though.
- __JT__
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Re: Lawn reno on a shoestring budget! Please do not flame!
Instead of #3, you could roll it. Both directions. I actually found this to be more tedious then spreading peat. But that’s the way…I roll. For me, spreading the peat wasn’t bad. It was my first time using it, and I spread 5K. I threw ~6’ in front of wheel barrow, ~5’ to the left side, and then would take three steps back. Repeat. It went quicker than I thought. What I had left over, I touched up the next day, after sprinklers got a chance to settle it.
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