Lawn reno on a shoestring budget! Please do not flame!

[Marinegrunt]

I just did a reno and used 90% TTTF and 10% KBG. Hogan Seed mixed the kbg in for me. I wish now I would've purchased the kbg separate and seeded it about 10-14 days before the tttf. That would've given the kbg a head start and they would both germinate around the same time. Someone else on here recommends doing it that way but I already had my seed before I ran across it. It makes sense.

To me the seed/soil contact is really important. For me that is rolling the seed into moist soil. Even a week in to a KBG renovation, you are starting to get some KBG popping up.

In order to push your 90% TTTF into the soil; with say a roller, you will do a job on the newly sprouted KBG, even if its not a lot of them. I can't say that seeding like that makes a lot of sense when many of us go out of our way not to disturb the seed bed, even while its still in sprout and pout.

Trying not to disturb the seed bed does probably make even more sense. Seems like quite a few don't use a lawn roller so splitting the seeding might be helpful to them. Good seed to soil contact definitely makes a big difference though. I guess I can see good points from both sides. You're going to get kbg germination regardless. Plus, it will eventually spread filling in thin spots so it splitting up the seeding might not do all that much in the long term. It might get you a little more kbg up front but it would probably all even out eventually.

[jfoege]

Here is an interesting connudrum I've run into and would appreciate wisdom , guidance, opinions, etc:

At day 14, the PR in my northern mix is about 3in tall. I'm still watering 3x a day to keep the surface layer moist because of the FF and the KBG in the mix. It looks to me as if I'm getting a round of germination yesterday and today, which I assume is the FF. I intend to water 3x a day for another week until I see good germination on the KBG in my pots (still not sure how to tell other than guesstimation). After which I intend to scale back to once a say watering in the AM.

Right now, with the soil being so moist all the time, I can't really go out and cut, but the PR is at 3" and will be at 3.5" very shortly...I was hoping to get to day 21ish without cutting , so as to get good germination on the FF and KBG.

Kind of tough having one extremely quick germinating species pairee with one of the slowest!

Thanks in advance guys!

[turf_toes]

Cut the grass. It's going to flop over and smother the smaller stuff shortly, if you don't.

Walking on it shouldn't do that much damage

[jfoege]

Hi turf_toes, mowed @ 2.5" HOC this afternoon before second watering of day at 5pm. Seems like I can get away with 10am and 5pm now as opposed to 8am 12pm 4pm.

[jfoege]

Turns out the little 2x2" inch holes everywhere are squirrels....

These little bastards are ruining my new reno! I'm going to have to back fill all these holes now and they tearing out all the nice, new grass!

Argh! BB gun effective? Daisy Red Ryder for $25 at Walmart? Me. Lawn chair. Beer. Time. Bye bye squirrels?

Anyone have a solution?

[HoosierLawnGnome]

Make yourself some squirrels with gravy. Tasty.

[Marinegrunt]

You'll probably need a .22. A bb gun probably won't kill them unless it's a perfect shot like into the eye and then brain. They do make some pretty powerful air rifles that will do the trick. You could even try a sling shot.

[jfoege]

Somebody told me that I should just accept them as free core aeration. Grrr....

[ken-n-nancy]

Somebody told me that I should just accept them as free core aeration. Grrr....

I feel your pain!

We have a chipmunk problem at our house right now, too. They don't seem tempted by the "Zapper" we have -- too much natural food around.

I'm very close to trying the 5-gallon bucket, board as a ramp, and couple handful of sunflower seeds approach...

[Marinegrunt]

Not to get too far off topic but I too had a chipmunk problem. I caught over 30 of them. Those little cage traps work great. They have the bigger traps for raccoons and the smaller ones for chipmunks. I just left a path of sunflower seeds starting about 5' from the trap and then left a pile of them on the trigger assembly. I think I spaced the trail of seed about a foot apart. There was one time I came from work and had 2 in the same trap. I would normally set 2 traps and I almost always had one in each trap each evening.

I remember seeing the 5 gallon bucket and board trap while searching for the best way to get rid of them. Seems like it would work great but I knew if our daughter caught me drowning them I'd be in big trouble! We have a bunch of state forest around so I just released them there. I got so sick of them I once just threw a dirt clog out of anger at one. It was probably 50 feet away. Right when it saw the clog coming it moved. It nailed it in the head and killed it. I couldn't believe it. It wasn't that I have good aim it's that the thing ran right into it.

[jfoege]

Looks like I've got an issue. On this lower reno area, I had been watering 3x / day for about 10 mins per zone with an impact sprinkler. I am the manual sprinkler controller and it has been a serious commitment. The renovation area has come in really well, I'd say. I've yet to post pictures, but I will eventually. There are, of course, spotty areas and thin areas. Some bare areas where squirrels have decided to digging. All in all though, not bad I'd say. I've mowed about 3 or 4 times already, which I contribute to the PR growing like gangbusters.

Even after the PR all germinated by day 7-10, I continued to water to keep the surface moist for 21 days to give the FF and KBG a chance to germinate as well. As things began to thicken, I scaled back on the watering to twice a day. However, the blades of grass were, necessarily, getting watered in the evening every night for weeks. I was afraid to let the soil dry out, because I was afraid that not all the KBG would have been germinated yet.

Now, it seems I am having fungal problems and also lots of tip yellowing and death (which may or may not be related?). Everything was looking fantastic and growing great up until about week 4 here and then I've had widespread tip yellowing and seedling death. I've noticed rust on some blades. I've noticed what looks to be like the characteristic dollar spot disease on other blades. On most of the blades with the yellowing tips, the roots seems to have disappeared. They are easily, easily pulled out of the ground with only maybe a millimeter or two of roots left. I'm thinking this may be some sort of damping off? I have no idea. It could be that the lawn mower is tearing tender FF and KBG seedlings here at week 4? I definitely have some fungal issues going on, but I'm not sure about the tip yellowing and seedlings that seem "pulled out" or lost their roots. I'm not sure if that's the mower or also a fungal disease? Or a lack of water? Or overwatering?

I really have no idea. I've let the stand dry out now for two days and plan on dropping 1# of N tomorrow at Week 4 mark and watering in heavy 0.25" but leaving two days of drying out in between from now on. I also think I might throw down some Scott's Fungal control from a big box w/ the fert and then water it all in. That plus giving it all two days to dry out and changing mower blades to a freshly sharpened one are the only ideas I can come up with.

I will post pictures in a moment. I know I read of someone on here asking the same questions, but I'll be damned if I can find the thread now. Seemed like everything was going dandy up until Week 4 then widespread tip yellowing and death. Can it also be from vigorous competition? I seeded heavy at 8#/1000 sq. ft. rather than 6#.

Argh...so many questions. I'm sorry guys.

Knowns:

* Rust spotted.

Possibly known:

* Dollar spot spotted (I think, will need to do a closer look tomorrow)

Unknown

* Tip yellowing and seedlings becoming un-rooted due to damping off? Mower tearing instead of cutting? Seedling competition? Nitrogen deficiency? Micro deficiency?

Plan of action:

1) Reduce watering to 0.25"-0.3" every third day, giving 48 hours to allow surface to dry out.

2) Before tomorrow's watering, drop 1# / 1000 sq. ft. of nitrogen in the form of Lesco starter fert that I have a half bag of remaining from the seed down date.

3) After watering put down Scott's Disease Control on moist foliage (thiophanate-methyl) @ the preventative rate to keep what seems to be a very mild fungal issue from spreading and becoming a very major one.

4) Change mower blade from brand new one that sucks to the older one that I sharpened and know is going to cut with surgical precision (and likely not last long before needing a new edge).

Pics coming in late tonight after dinner and a trip to orange box.

[Marinegrunt]

Seems this hot humid weather is nailing a lot of us. I too have dollar spot in my 3 week old reno. I read something about the fungicide Propicazonole helping germination and strengthening roots. Not sure how true it is though. I just ordered some Propicazonole but a Dan10 said you can get Bayer Advanced Fungus Control for Lawns at any big box store which has Propicazonole in it.

I had some yellowing tips but not very many. They were in areas where too much water was an issue. Some died because of it too. I cut back on the watering and it seemed to help. It's hard to water because the water wants to run to these areas. Our hard ground doesn't help any.

Sorry I couldn't be any help. Mainly wanted to let you know that you're not alone. Just today 3 or 4 of us posted about a disease.

[jfoege]

With the warm nights, the hot days and the humidity we were having, coupled with the frequent watering to establish new turf AND having heavily seeded PR in with the KBG and FF mix, I ended up with pythium blight in a few spots. Not cool. But, the conditions were perfect. I put down 3#/1000 sq. ft. of Headway G on the reno area yesterday, as well as Dylox because I had a mean outbreak of turf caterpillars, and 1# P and 0.75 # N in the form of Lesco Starter (the rest of the half bag I had put down at seed down a month ago). Plan is to put down Bifenthrin granules @ 2# / 1000 in a few days after the residual Dylox wears off to give me a good month of turf caterpillar control until the frosts hit.

The other 3000 sq. ft. of reno area that I started 2 weeks ago is coming in nicely. I really need to get pics on here for everyone. Now that the temps have dropped, I've scaled the watering back on the main reno area to 20m a zone every third day. The newly seeded areas in reno section B are getting morning only watering for about 10m per zone. The rest of the Headway G (10#) is going down on the remaining 3000 sq. ft. reno B area as well as 2# per 1000 of Bifenthrin as well. The Dylox went down on all ~9000-10,000 sq. ft. of reno areas about a week ago.

I guess the plan was once I noticed armyworms and a grub here and there was Dylox + Bifenthrin.

Then when I noticed dollar spot, rust, and pythium - Headway G became part of the plan.

Now, I think the plan is to scale back irrigation accordingly. Keep disinfecting the mower after each mowing with 10% solution of bleach after scraping all the clippings out. And spoon feed everything about 1# of N a week in the form of 10-10-10 I got for $2.50 a bag at Wally World on the cheeeeap thanks to this site and the heads up

1# of N a week isn't too much for a mixed PR, FF, KBG brand new lawn? Maybe 0.5# a week would be better? 1# a week sounds scary when the recommendations are all 3# per year, with 2# out of 3# coming in Fall.

I have a 50# bag of 46-0-0 Urea on hand for the winterizing apps. Was planning on doing 1# / 1000 of N by dropping about 2# of Urea per 1000.

The stuff is growing like crazy, though. Have to mow every 2 days practically....HOC is @ 2.5 still. Thinking about dropping all reno areas , the 4 week old one, and the 2 week old one down to 2" HOC for the rest of the season now that the cooler weather has set in.

Hope everyone else is doing well with their fall chores!

Cheers,

John

[Marinegrunt]

I too thought I had Dollar Spot because of the "cobwebs" but it ended up being Pythium Blight. It really did a toll on my seedlings.

Be careful with the nitrogen if you still have the Pythium Blight. Nitrogen is good for dollar spot but it will make the Pythium Blight worse. When my fungus first started it looked like Dollar Spot so I fed it urea and applied Propicazonole. A few days later the Pythium Blight was spreading like crazy. At the very least be sure to read up on Pythium Blight and nitrogen before applying it. I stopped watering at the first signs of the fungus. The heatwave stopped so that helped. I ordered some Subdue Maxx and applied it yesterday even though the Pythium is gone. I didn't want to take a chance since I'll be spot seeding and watering more. The Subdue Maxx is suppose to protect the seeds from getting hit by the Pythium too. It's also suppose to help with germination. I just can't believe how expensive the good fungicides are. It's well worth it if they work.

I thought it would be smooth sailing after the peat moss was down. I sure was wrong about that.

[jfoege]

Subdue looks good, but it's damned pricey! There is something called Apron for Pythium, too, for seed down, I've read. But, I haven't yet taken a deeper look into it.

[jfoege]

Well, I've obviously done a bit more reading and figured out that, yes, 1# of N a week would have been more than recommended (0.5# per week is the recommendation) and especially since I've got a NoMix and the FF in there wouldn't handle it like a KBG monostand. So, sticking with the 4#/1000 sq. ft. of 18-24-12 @ seed down and then again 4#/1000 sq. ft. of 18-24-12 again a month later is all the fertility measures I'm going to employ until the winterizer apps in November. The questions looming on my mind is, since the original ~6500 sq. ft. lower reno has been hit with the starter on seed down and again 4 weeks later, the only remaining fert drop is to the additional 3000 sq. ft. or so areas. These were seeded 2 weeks ago. First frost looks like it should be coming late this year. Probably around Oct 20th or so, if not later. Looks to me like the KBG in the NoMix on the 2 week old reno areas is just starting to widely germinate and I'm still doing a morning watering until next Monday the 9th of Oct, which will be day 21. At that point, once I'm satisfied that all the KBG has germinated that is going to, I will start to scale back to every other day irrigation and eventually every third day, like I am doing now on the lower reno that is approx. 4.5 weeks old.

However, the KBG is probably not really ready to get hit with N for at least another 2 weeks, but that's right around the time that the frost will be coming....Would you guys drop the last dose of fert on the newly reno'ed areas a week earlier? On the 9th instead of the 16th, assuming that first frost hits around Oct 21st this year? I'm tempted to do so even though the KBG in the mix will likely not be out of "sprout n' pout" by that point.

Tasks remaining:

Tomorrow:

* Drop 2#/1000 sq. ft. of Bifenthrin 0.115% granular on all 10,000 sq. ft. (To handle successive egg hatch of Turf caterpillars)

* Drop 3#/1000 sq. ft. of Headway G on the newest 3000 sq. ft. (Other 6500 or so sq. ft. section got it last week already due to Pythium)

Sometime between Oct 9-Oct 16:

* Drop 4#/1000 sq. ft. of Lesco 18-24-12 starter on newest seeded reno areas. Oct 16th was original planned date (at 4 weeks of age post seed down).

Sometime in mid-Nov approximately (Whenever I notice the window of opportunity):

* Winterizer apps of 1# N per 1000 sq. ft. in form of Urea 46-0-0

Questions:

I have creeping charlie and the odd dandelion here and there in the 4.5 week older reno area. Any sense in spraying w/ Trimec @ Week 6 or just wait to battle the weeds w/ spot spraying next May / June etc? I assume, as long as the weed is actively growing, why not? And as long as the grass is still growing shoots, then I'm sure spraying some Trimec will take the weeds out. I'm tempted to hold off until next Spring to eliminate the few weeds that I do have, though, for whatever reason.

Cheers,

John

[jfoege]

Lower reno area (approx 6500 sq ft)

Before:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bw2KO ... El6OE5sNlE

After (4 weeks):

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bw2KO ... G1SN1ItREU

[jfoege]

Sorry for the double post. Will get better images soon. Just wanted a quick before after to update the thread.

[Sicride]

Looks like great progress! Can't wait to see more

[smast16]

jfoege,

Read up on SnowBob11's reno thread. I don't remember the exact day post germination, but he started urea apps earlier than most would, and dang it looks good.

Regarding the weeds, that's kind of your call as to when you start spraying, as long as the grass is old enough per the label. Know that creeping charlie will take more than 1 spray to take out, and you might be better going with triclopyr. My opinion: Creeping charlie is a winter perennial and will continue to grow and spread through fall (and winter if its warm enough), so i'd start spraying this fall (again, when the grass is mature enough per the label).