Ken-n-Nancy's 2018 Front Lawn Renovation - "War on Triv"

Discuss how to and whether you should renovate your lawn
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Re: Ken-n-Nancy's 2018 Front Lawn Renovation - "War on Triv"

Post by KBGkicksazz » July 19th, 2019, 3:35 pm

I’m mowing every 3rd day. I’m probably 25 miles east of you.

My lawn never slowed down so far this summer but I’m on a heavy remediation plan.
ken-n-nancy wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 11:10 am
I had been expecting to see significant "browning" of the renovated lawn by now. However, here in NH, we've dodged really high temperatures so far this year, and even on days when it has been hot, it has cooled back down into the 60s overnight.

The front lawn KBG is still growing well and looking good, other than increasing amounts of Poa annua in the shadier (thinner) spots.

I mowed last night, which was 5 days after my prior mow, at a height of 3.25" and was probably taking off about 2" which breaks the 1/3 rule a little. I had to go real slow in the sunnier areas to keep from bogging down the mower due to the thickness of grass and the amount being cut off.

I'm expecting growth to slow down a bit over these next 3 days with forecasted highs in the mid-90s and overnight lows only falling into the mid-70s.

I probably should make another Serenade app tonight, as disease pressure will be very high with the heat and humidity.

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Re: Ken-n-Nancy's 2018 Front Lawn Renovation - "War on Triv"

Post by Green » July 20th, 2019, 1:10 pm

As far as Poa annua, I've never seen it make it through a Summer here in sunny areas, especially where regular irrigation is not used. But when I had an I infestation in what is now the flood prone part of the low input area a few years ago, I wanted to knock it down to prevent lots of seeds, so I did the Tenacity and the pre emergent. Still do pre emergent if not seeding.

The lowest label rate is 2oz per acre, which divided into 16 gives 8 applications. You can stretch it out a bit on later applications by backing down to 1.5 oz per acre, but note that going below label rate (or repeated use of the same herbicide) may promote plant resistance over time. Still, there's no way around it. Some people go down to the 1oz rate and apply weekly, but to me, that's too low. Ideally you'd start with at least a 3oz rate in the Spring and then make all subsequent apps spaced out for maximum whitening. Letting it recover means you've wasted part of your annual limit, and you don't have much to begin with.

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Re: Ken-n-Nancy's 2018 Front Lawn Renovation - "War on Triv"

Post by ken-n-nancy » July 20th, 2019, 3:20 pm

Green wrote:
July 20th, 2019, 1:10 pm
As far as Poa annua...
Thanks, Green!

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Re: Ken-n-Nancy's 2018 Front Lawn Renovation - "War on Triv"

Post by northeastlawn » July 20th, 2019, 7:36 pm

[quote=Green post_id=335665 time=1563642614 user_id=2313]
The lowest label rate is 2oz per acre, which divided into 16 gives 8 applications. You can stretch it out a bit on later applications by backing down to 1.5 oz per acre, but note that going below label rate (or repeated use of the same herbicide) may promote plant resistance over time. Still, there's no way around it. Some people go down to the 1oz rate and apply weekly, but to me, that's too low. Ideally you'd start with at least a 3oz rate in the Spring and then make all subsequent apps spaced out for maximum whitening. Letting it recover means you've wasted part of your annual limit, and you don't have much to begin with.
[/quote]

Thanks, for the reply.

What is the timing between apps you have used for the 2oz rate?

Do you find the POA Annua gets white after the first app, or does it take a lot more of them?

I just ask because what has thrown me off in the past is expecting the POA annua to light up all white after 10 days and a 4oz app. It seems like it takes a few tenacity apps just to get the POA Annua to start turning yellow, then maybe white, but often straight to brown. It just doesn't seem to light up white after the first dose.

Which has lead me to mistakenly think the the bleaching I was getting after the 3rd or 4th tenacity app was KBG, when in fact it was probably POA Annua that was taking its time to die.

Sorry for the questions, the POA Annua issue in my lawn has been getting better, but I am still battling it, and learning what doesn't seem to work. Its seems much harder to control for me than just spray tenacity on it a few times and use a pre-m :-)

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Re: Ken-n-Nancy's 2018 Front Lawn Renovation - "War on Triv"

Post by Green » July 20th, 2019, 10:26 pm

Generally, I can get Poa annua white with a 3oz rate. Timing until white is variable. But a few days to a week after I see it, I'm ideally back out there with a 2oz per acre spray. After a while, it gets even more white and starts to wilt. That's when you hit it again for the third time (always near the peak of whitening from the previous app). Initially, frequency may be every 14 to 21 days, but results tend to speed up around the third app. I might back down to 1.5 for the 4th and subsequent apps to save enough for the following apps. By that time, it should be starting to actually brown. You keep hitting it weekly or so after that until it's dead. I use plenty of non-ionic surfactant.

I don't recall seeing yellowing as a first sign. Interesting.

You guys think this would work for you two as well?


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Re: Ken-n-Nancy's 2018 Front Lawn Renovation - "War on Triv"

Post by northeastlawn » July 21st, 2019, 8:59 am

My game plan has always been in the early spring trying to get to it before the KBG wakes up. In high sight I may be making two mistakes....

1.) Wasting valuable Tenacity before all the POA Annua has even woken up
2.) Hitting POA that is already hurting from Tenacity applied in the fall and not taking the Tenacity it in fully

I have done the the 4oz/ac then wait 10-14 days, the evaluate and start at the 2oz/ac rate every 3-4 days. But I have noticed two things....

1.) I don't get a lot of bleaching at the 10-14day mark in the spring, maybe its not up and growing yet
'2.) The over 70deg days are not consistent in the spring, and going every 3 days while dodging rain and over cast days doesn't seem to hurt the POA Annua as much as when its sunny and warm.

Maybe it has to do with how the mesotrione blocks the POA from processing light. Maybe spraying teh POA Annua when its larger and has more surface area to take in the mesotrione.

The same thing happened when i tried treating it last fall, and we had rain and overpays weather for two weeks. The POA didnt seem to hurt until the sun came out again then started to yellow and bleach again.

I do worry about the POA becoming immune to the mesotrione, maybe it already happened. I will probably just be hand pulling just before I start the fall fertilizer program this year.

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Re: Ken-n-Nancy's 2018 Front Lawn Renovation - "War on Triv"

Post by ken-n-nancy » July 21st, 2019, 9:42 am

Thanks for all the tips and suggestions on what to do regarding the Poa annua battle. I may spray a diagnostic dose of Tenacity at about 3oz/acre to help identify the Poa annua in the lawn and then just hand pull what is revealed. The area where I have the most of it is only about 20' square (i.e. about 400sqft).

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Re: Ken-n-Nancy's 2018 Front Lawn Renovation - "War on Triv"

Post by Green » July 21st, 2019, 11:07 pm

ken-n-nancy wrote:
July 21st, 2019, 9:42 am
Thanks for all the tips and suggestions on what to do regarding the Poa annua battle. I may spray a diagnostic dose of Tenacity at about 3oz/acre to help identify the Poa annua in the lawn and then just hand pull what is revealed. The area where I have the most of it is only about 20' square (i.e. about 400sqft).
You're welcome. And one other thing...

And this also addresses the question above about wasting Tenacity on grass that is not fully active yet in early Spring. I did this in mid or late Spring. Just like with Triv (when using Certainty, for example), you want to use Summer heat to try to finish off the undesirable Poa. Remember, Tenacity is not labeled to kill Poa annua, but it will under some temperature conditions. Use them to your advantage!

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Re: Ken-n-Nancy's 2018 Front Lawn Renovation - "War on Triv"

Post by Paul » July 22nd, 2019, 1:16 pm

Looking good Ken-n-Nancy, Bewitched is a great Cultivar, and so glad I renovated back in 2016. A also agree with the Poa Annua, just pull it out when you see it. I have had to fill in some areas where I pulled out so much, it left a slight depression in the lawn, so I just fill it in with a Compost/loam mixture. The Bewitched usually fills in with time.

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Re: Ken-n-Nancy's 2018 Front Lawn Renovation - "War on Triv"

Post by ken-n-nancy » July 23rd, 2019, 9:12 pm

Paul wrote:
July 22nd, 2019, 1:16 pm
... also agree with the Poa Annua, just pull it out when you see it. ... The Bewitched usually fills in with time.
I did some hand-pulling tonight, but the patch I have is pretty large and the Poa annua is so intermingled with the KBG. We'll see if I end up having enough patience for the hand-pulling or if I decide I need to mix up some Tenacity. I also have a patch of what I think may be bentgrass, so I might want to mix up the Tenacity for that anyway.

Mowed today, five days since the prior mowing -- one day later than the normal "every 4th day" we have been doing lately. Due to the extra growth, raised the mowing height one notch (1/2") for the front lawn which grows the fastest due to more sun than the rest of the lawn. So, cut the front lawn at 3.75" instead of our normal 3.25"

Front lawn still seems to be growing well, despite the three days of 95F high temperatures over the weekend. Grass seems to have coasted right through the heat wave -- surely helped by the fact that the past 36 hours have been cool and rainy. We received 2.1" of rain in the last two days, with today's high temperatures just barely breaking 70F.

Lawn also clearly needs more fertilizer, but every time I get an opportunity to get some Bay State Fertilizer, I call ahead and learn that they're out of stock -- seems like the popularity of Bay State has gone up quite a bit in the past few years. Might have to substitute something else again.

Took advantage of a little bit of free time and thinned the weeds out of an area of our woodsy border where I transplanted some ferns last fall. Have been very glad to see that the ferns have all survived the transplanting -- some online sources I had read before doing that said that wild ferns were difficult to transplant, but the ones I moved all seemed to make it! Also trimmed the lower branches off our magnolia, as they are getting in the way of mowing.

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Re: Ken-n-Nancy's 2018 Front Lawn Renovation - "War on Triv"

Post by ken-n-nancy » July 25th, 2019, 11:23 pm

Today we applied the first application of pre-emergent to stop Poa annua from germinating this fall: Prodiamine 65 WDG at a 3-month rate (0.5 Tbsp/ksqft).

The new Bewitched+Prosperity front lawn continues to improve, even through the heat. Very thankful that our renovation has turned out so well!

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Re: Ken-n-Nancy's 2018 Front Lawn Renovation - "War on Triv"

Post by Iowa Jim » July 26th, 2019, 8:34 am

Looks great and nice stripes.

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Too Much Propiconazole - Adverse Effects!

Post by ken-n-nancy » July 26th, 2019, 2:55 pm

Sprayed Serenade at approximately 2.5oz/ksqft to all KBG as part of our preventative biogfungicide plan.

Spot-sprayed triclopyr in the form of Ortho CCO (Clover, Chickweed, and Oxalis Killer) to all weeds throughout the lawn, which are primarily clover and wild violet. Planning to re-apply a second application in about 10 days.

Diagnosed some wierdness (much thinner but darker turf) in the KBG side lawn as having been an overapplication of propiconazole (PPZ41) in a few portions of the side lawn from when I made that application back on June 27. Back at that time, I measured out the desired amount of PPZ41 for the square footage I would be covering, loaded it into my Earthway S25 sprayer and applied as I normally do, but I ended up with a fair bit left in the sprayer after I'd made a first pass over the entire side lawn. Figuring that I would give the sections of the side lawn experiencing the most disease a bit of an "extra curative boost" I made a couple extra passes over a few of those sections, in a kind of odd pattern, as I was targeting the worst disease areas.

The disease has now cleared up throughout the entire side lawn, however, some areas have thinned out significantly. In previous weeks, I had presumed this was due to the disease, as this is in the places where the disease had been worst. However, looking at it today, it is clear that the thinner turf is also significantly darker turf and is in the pattern of sprayer-wide swaths that exactly match the places that I made the extra two passes with the sprayer. It's only since I made the propiconazole application that I learned that DMI fungicides have a growth regulation effect and can result in turf that is darker, slower growing, and less dense than untreated turf. The overapplication has clearly magnified that effect to the point of being detrimental. Oops! Sometimes the cure is nearly as bad as the disease! (Well, at least when the cure is over-administered -- I should have known that it's not always the case that "more is better.") Live and learn!

I would post a photo of the damage, but with mottled sunlight through the trees on the grass right now, it's pretty hard to see in a photo. I'll try to get a pic later when filtered sunlight is no longer on the portion of the lawn having the problem.

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Re: Too Much Propiconazole - Adverse Effects!

Post by KBGkicksazz » July 26th, 2019, 3:23 pm

Thanks for such detail. Much appreciated.

I’d assumed it was unlikely to be able to over apply a fungicide.

ken-n-nancy wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 2:55 pm
Sprayed Serenade at approximately 2.5oz/ksqft to all KBG as part of our preventative biogfungicide plan.

Spot-sprayed triclopyr in the form of Ortho CCO (Clover, Chickweed, and Oxalis Killer) to all weeds throughout the lawn, which are primarily clover and wild violet. Planning to re-apply a second application in about 10 days.

Diagnosed some wierdness (much thinner but darker turf) in the KBG side lawn as having been an overapplication of propiconazole (PPZ41) in a few portions of the side lawn from when I made that application back on June 27. Back at that time, I measured out the desired amount of PPZ41 for the square footage I would be covering, loaded it into my Earthway S25 sprayer and applied as I normally do, but I ended up with a fair bit left in the sprayer after I'd made a first pass over the entire side lawn. Figuring that I would give the sections of the side lawn experiencing the most disease a bit of an "extra curative boost" I made a couple extra passes over a few of those sections, in a kind of odd pattern, as I was targeting the worst disease areas.

The disease has now cleared up throughout the entire side lawn, however, some areas have thinned out significantly. In previous weeks, I had presumed this was due to the disease, as this is in the places where the disease had been worst. However, looking at it today, it is clear that the thinner turf is also significantly darker turf and is in the pattern of sprayer-wide swaths that exactly match the places that I made the extra two passes with the sprayer. It's only since I made the propiconazole application that I learned that DMI fungicides have a growth regulation effect and can result in turf that is darker, slower growing, and less dense than untreated turf. The overapplication has clearly magnified that effect to the point of being detrimental. Oops! Sometimes the cure is nearly as bad as the disease! (Well, at least when the cure is over-administered -- I should have known that it's not always the case that "more is better.") Live and learn!

I would post a photo of the damage, but with mottled sunlight through the trees on the grass right now, it's pretty hard to see in a photo. I'll try to get a pic later when filtered sunlight is no longer on the portion of the lawn having the problem.

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Re: Too Much Propiconazole - Adverse Effects!

Post by ken-n-nancy » July 28th, 2019, 9:39 am

ken-n-nancy wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 2:55 pm
I'll try to get a pic later when filtered sunlight is no longer on the portion of the lawn having the problem.
Below are the promised pics. First pic shows the worst of the damage. Second pic is the same as the first one, but marked up to show the linear boundaries between good and bad, where too much propiconazole was applied in the "extra bonus" passes, causing damage that clearly follows the straight-line paths I pushed the sprayer.

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Image

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Re: Ken-n-Nancy's 2018 Front Lawn Renovation - "War on Triv"

Post by Paul » August 1st, 2019, 11:40 am

Just a quick question Ken-n-Nancy from your post:
ken-n-nancy wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 11:23 pm
oday we applied the first application of pre-emergent to stop Poa annua from germinating this fall: Prodiamine 65 WDG at a 3-month rate (0.5 Tbsp/ksqft).
From the label, the max rate for KBG is 0.55 ounces/1000 sqft per year. The rate you used was 0.5 Tbsp/1000 sqft or 0.25 ounces/1000 sqft. So does this mean you can only apply it two times per year before you hit your max rate?

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Re: Ken-n-Nancy's 2018 Front Lawn Renovation - "War on Triv"

Post by ken-n-nancy » August 1st, 2019, 2:07 pm

Paul wrote:
August 1st, 2019, 11:40 am
Just a quick question Ken-n-Nancy from your post:
ken-n-nancy wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 11:23 pm
oday we applied the first application of pre-emergent to stop Poa annua from germinating this fall: Prodiamine 65 WDG at a 3-month rate (0.5 Tbsp/ksqft).
From the label, the max rate for KBG is 0.55 ounces/1000 sqft per year. The rate you used was 0.5 Tbsp/1000 sqft or 0.25 ounces/1000 sqft. So does this mean you can only apply it two times per year before you hit your max rate?
Hmm. I know that I had previously determined that 3 applications of 0.5 Tbsp brought me exactly up to (but not over) the 0.55 oz/1,000 sq.ft. maximum. But your math seems right, too. So, where is the difference?

I used the "EQUIVALENT MEASUREMENTS For PRODIAMINE 65 WDG" table on page 4 of the Quali-Pro label which lists that 0.37 oz is the same as 1 Tablespoon and that 0.55 oz is the same as 1.5 Tablespoons. This table makes it pretty clear that 1.5 Tablespoons of product is 0.55oz of product.

What is going on is that the Quali-Pro label uses ounces of weight while your conversion from 0.5 Tbsp to 0.25 (fluid) ounces is for volume (liquid measure). It makes sense that the label is in weight, since the WDG pellets are in a dry form and are sold by weight (not volume) even though they are in a 5-pound jug (which sure looks like a jug for holding liquid!)

My hypothesis is borne out by the same table -- 1.5 lbs/acre = 0.55 oz/1,000 sqft = 1.5 Tbsp/1,000 sqft.

1.5 pounds is 24 ounces (weight). 24 ounces / 1 acre = 24 ounces / 43,560 sqft => 0.55 oz / 1,000 sqft.

So, to make the long story short, 3 applications of 0.5Tbsp/1000sqft of Quali-Pro Prodiamine 65 WDG totals to 1.5Tbsp/1,000sqft = 0.55oz/1,000sqft of product applied in a year, which is exactly the annual maximum listed on the label for Kentucky Bluegrass (no more, no less).

I make my three applications at (1) forsythia bloom which is around 25 April for me, (2) end of July, and (3) mid-September. This gives me pre-emergent coverage for just about the entire growing season in New Hampshire, with a weak spot in mid-July, and a bit extra coverage in mid-September. However, this approach provides the extra protection when I think I need it most -- in the peak of Poa annua germination.

In any case, this whole confusion of ounces (weight) and fluid ounces (volume) is probably an example of why we should have all converted over to the metric system long ago...

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Re: Ken-n-Nancy's 2018 Front Lawn Renovation - "War on Triv"

Post by Paul » August 1st, 2019, 2:57 pm

I haven't opened the container yet, and just assumed it was a liquid and not pellets. That clears things up.

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Re: Ken-n-Nancy's 2018 Front Lawn Renovation - "War on Triv"

Post by northeastlawn » August 1st, 2019, 3:58 pm

How do you guys measure a half a Tbsp?

I have tried to weigh it out, but its such a minuscule amount it doesn't seem right when I do it. I have been eye balling 1 1/2 teaspoons and not trying to beat myself up if I go over a bit.

I guess easiest might be just mixing up a 1 Tbsp in a gallon, then just pouring a 1/2 gallon in the tank and adding the extra water I need to spray 1,000sf.

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Re: Ken-n-Nancy's 2018 Front Lawn Renovation - "War on Triv"

Post by andy10917 » August 1st, 2019, 4:34 pm

I tried this once - it worked pretty well...
Image

You can also use something marked in milliliters -- half a tbsp is 7.4-7.5 ml

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