Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Discuss how to and whether you should renovate your lawn
KnickLeDime
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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by KnickLeDime » March 5th, 2019, 3:09 pm

Green wrote:
March 5th, 2019, 3:04 pm
To expand on tuf_toes's point...

The reason the Scotts Pendimethalin (recently renamed "WeedEx") does not last long (I had crabgrass break through in mid Summer with it) is because being a consumer product, they list lower application rates than the pro products with the same active ingredient. The scientific reason for this is because it's harsh on your grass roots at higher amounts. Some pros get by this by using a split application...applying twice consecutively to cover 4 months (and reaching the yearly maximum in the process. So, the product appears less expensive but actually is not when you factor everything in.

Dimension and Prodiamine are more cost effective and last longer, while not as harsh on your grass roots. If you're only dealing with crabgrass and a few broadleaf weeds, they will work fine. If you had equal proportions crabgrass and broadleaf weeds last year and want something to block both, Pendimethalin is actually a somewhat more effective choice when applied as the labels on the pro versions suggest (twice, about 2 months apart).
I had some crabgrass and a little bit of various other things but it was very mild...I just want to keep up on it and looking for what else is around to the traditional Scotts stuff I've used. I'll need to find some place that sells either Dimension or Prodiamine...

Green
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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by Green » March 6th, 2019, 12:15 pm

You can try Home Depot/Lowes/Ace/True Value, garden centers, etc.
SiteOne would definitely have it.

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andy10917
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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by andy10917 » March 6th, 2019, 8:09 pm

Getting lawn Pre-M's in New York is tricky and difficult to understand. You may want to look on-line.

KnickLeDime
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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by KnickLeDime » March 6th, 2019, 8:33 pm

I have a site one store not 7 minutes from my house according to google. Maybe they will have it.

Green
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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by Green » March 7th, 2019, 3:54 pm

If WeedEx is all you can find due to the strange NY regulations, it can be made to work effectively using the split app strategy I outlined.


KnickLeDime
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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by KnickLeDime » March 7th, 2019, 11:22 pm

Green wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 3:54 pm
If WeedEx is all you can find due to the strange NY regulations, it can be made to work effectively using the split app strategy I outlined.
I'll go around on Saturday and look for Dimension if I can find it...if I can't, I'll need to look at the WeedEx product. Point of clarification on the split application. Are you saying put half the product; once in April and another half two months later or are you saying put the full application but several months apart. If Halt only lasts for 2 months that would mean one application in a few weeks and the second application somewhere early/mid Summer?

KnickLeDime
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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by KnickLeDime » March 7th, 2019, 11:39 pm

BTW, if I'm planning a late summer repair, would it make sense to go with Dimension over Barricade as I believe I want it out of the soil around early August. Considering Dimension has a 4 months efficacy window that seems to work better then Barricade with 8 months. My fear is if I put Barricade down, it will interfere with germination of grass when I go to repair and seed in August...does that make sense?

Green
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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by Green » March 8th, 2019, 1:22 am

Yes, it does make sense. Hopefully you can find Dimension. Barricade is harder to apply evenly at the low rates you would need. I use Dimension in the Spring for the same reason, as well as others (better early post-emergence crabgrass control...Barricade has little or none).

I do 4 lbs/K of 0.15% Dimension (usually mid April) and it's totally gone by mid August. If I have to apply a month later than that instead, I reduce to about 3 lbs/K rate.

Green
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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by Green » March 8th, 2019, 1:28 am

KnickLeDime wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 11:22 pm
Green wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 3:54 pm
If WeedEx is all you can find due to the strange NY regulations, it can be made to work effectively using the split app strategy I outlined.
I'll go around on Saturday and look for Dimension if I can find it...if I can't, I'll need to look at the WeedEx product. Point of clarification on the split application.
Let me check the labels for the pro products and get back to you on the rates, so I give you the right info. Thanks.

Green
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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by Green » March 8th, 2019, 1:49 am

KnickLeDime wrote:
March 5th, 2019, 2:43 pm
...from looking on TheAndersons website...page 18 of their catalog appears to have many options for Herbicides with Dimension. Can anyone provide some clarify what product to hunt for?

https://assets.andersonsplantnutrient.c ... re_C19.pdf
Their catalog is great, but you might not be able to find what you want as we've talked about. That said, take a look at page 19, at the 4th fertilizer in the list. That one contains both Dimension and GrubEx in one, and no Nitrogen, so you can apply it before the grass fully greens up if you want to. Application rate for 4 months protection with this one is 3.4 to 3.6 lbs/K. There are other brands that have basically the same combo product as well. It might cost like $80 per bag, but is actually a cost savings and time savings overall.

KnickLeDime
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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by KnickLeDime » March 8th, 2019, 12:12 pm

Green wrote:
March 8th, 2019, 1:49 am
KnickLeDime wrote:
March 5th, 2019, 2:43 pm
...from looking on TheAndersons website...page 18 of their catalog appears to have many options for Herbicides with Dimension. Can anyone provide some clarify what product to hunt for?

https://assets.andersonsplantnutrient.c ... re_C19.pdf
Their catalog is great, but you might not be able to find what you want as we've talked about. That said, take a look at page 19, at the 4th fertilizer in the list. That one contains both Dimension and GrubEx in one, and no Nitrogen, so you can apply it before the grass fully greens up if you want to. Application rate for 4 months protection with this one is 3.4 to 3.6 lbs/K. There are other brands that have basically the same combo product as well. It might cost like $80 per bag, but is actually a cost savings and time savings overall.
Just to be sure, this is the one you are talking about? Not sure I can find this product but I'll try...maybe siteone will have it. Would be nice to get Dimension and GrubEx is one. You mentioned other brands with similar combination...can you name any so I can try to find alternatives if I can't find this. Otherwise I'll need to do basic Dimension and then layer on GrubEx in a separate application.
Image

KnickLeDime
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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by KnickLeDime » March 8th, 2019, 1:04 pm

So local SiteOne has these products for sale....do any of these come close?

https://www.siteone.com/agronomic-maint ... s/c/sh1311

Riverpilot
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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by Riverpilot » March 8th, 2019, 5:37 pm

I use the 0-0-7 Dimension, but I can't remember which percentage off hand. It's either the .10% or the .15%.

I'll give you a little advice about SiteOne. They, normally, have great people working their. If you ask them, they love to talk about lawns, irrigation, pretty much anything. Get on good terms with them and ask about setting up an account.
Even homeowners, like myself, who only buy a few bags of product a year, can get better pricing, etc.. Plus, if you have a good relationship, they'll bend over backwards to find products that they may not have in stock at their local store/warehouse, but is available elsewhere.
Of course local/state laws come into play as well, so it may not be legally available.

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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by Riverpilot » March 8th, 2019, 5:45 pm

Also, Merit is for grubs (instead of GrubEx) and Momentum is for dandelions/Broadleaf control.

Basically SiteOne, normally, has better products at a better price than a Home Depot, Lowes, etc..
If they can't get those specific products in your local area, they'll know substitutes for them.

KnickLeDime
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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by KnickLeDime » March 8th, 2019, 8:12 pm

Riverpilot wrote:
March 8th, 2019, 5:37 pm
I use the 0-0-7 Dimension, but I can't remember which percentage off hand. It's either the .10% or the .15%.

I'll give you a little advice about SiteOne. They, normally, have great people working their. If you ask them, they love to talk about lawns, irrigation, pretty much anything. Get on good terms with them and ask about setting up an account.
Even homeowners, like myself, who only buy a few bags of product a year, can get better pricing, etc.. Plus, if you have a good relationship, they'll bend over backwards to find products that they may not have in stock at their local store/warehouse, but is available elsewhere.
Of course local/state laws come into play as well, so it may not be legally available.
Uggh...just realized SiteOne isn't open on Saturday...BOOOO!!!!!

KnickLeDime
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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by KnickLeDime » March 8th, 2019, 8:48 pm

Green wrote:
March 8th, 2019, 1:49 am
KnickLeDime wrote:
March 5th, 2019, 2:43 pm
...from looking on TheAndersons website...page 18 of their catalog appears to have many options for Herbicides with Dimension. Can anyone provide some clarify what product to hunt for?

https://assets.andersonsplantnutrient.c ... re_C19.pdf
Their catalog is great, but you might not be able to find what you want as we've talked about. That said, take a look at page 19, at the 4th fertilizer in the list. That one contains both Dimension and GrubEx in one, and no Nitrogen, so you can apply it before the grass fully greens up if you want to. Application rate for 4 months protection with this one is 3.4 to 3.6 lbs/K. There are other brands that have basically the same combo product as well. It might cost like $80 per bag, but is actually a cost savings and time savings overall.
Sorry, I know I'm asking A LOT of questions but, what is the rationale for doing Dimension variant without Nitrogen or Phosphorous and only Potassium provided I can even find it? I understand the Dimension for weed control and Acelepryn for grub control....but why no N and P?

Green
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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by Green » March 9th, 2019, 2:23 am

KnickLeDime wrote:
March 8th, 2019, 8:12 pm
Uggh...just realized SiteOne isn't open on Saturday...BOOOO!!!!!
I thought they were during the busy season, but maybe that is a few weeks away...?

I know Lebanon and Shaws both offer comparable 0.167% Dimension/0.067% Acelepryn 0-0-7 combo products similar to the Andersons one. Lebanon has some with Nitrogen, too, like the 25-0-5 which I've also used.

Since you have a new lawn less than two years old, you could probably make excellent use of the versions with Nitrogen. But you still have to wait until the lawn is green and growing to apply N.

There are various reasons people like 0-0-7/0-0-8 products instead of ones with N. A lot of us prefer not to fertilize too early or too much in the Spring because we like the performance from timing it differently. Others like to use their own fertilizer types, etc.

If you get the 25-0-5 for instance, 0.25x3.5= 0.875 lb of N per thousand square feet going down. That is a lot to be applying all at once early in the Spring. When I used this product, I split it up into two apps a month apart for that reason. But it was very cost effective because it had the Dimension, the Acelepryn/Grubex, Nitrogen, and even some Potassium all in one.

Phosphorus typically is not included in standard fertilizers due to laws that prevent or restrict Phosphorus applications. Milorganite is an excellent source, though.

KnickLeDime
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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by KnickLeDime » March 12th, 2019, 9:16 am

So I met this morning with Jacob at SiteOne. Guy was super super nice, he spend many years being the head groundskeep at several local golf courses. He's also got all types of certifications etc. I was impressed by his knowledge....is this level of expertise normal for SiteOne guys? Anyway, we had a good 35 minute discussion, I showed him pictures of my damaged lawn, the grubs I pulled out the watering schedule, soil test etc. Here is what I learned in no particular order.

- Dimension is a controlled/restricted product in NY thus I won't be able to buy it legally and apply.
- He suggested for pre-emergent to put down something called Pre-M 0-0-8 with Pendamethalin. He went as far as to suggest to put down Barricade which has a longer efficacy window. Apparently Barricade I can buy and apply as it's not restricted in NY. When I suggested to him that I'm going to try to do a lawn repair this August, he seemed to back off that suggestion but said that he could work up an application rate that would reduce the efficacy window but he'd need to think about if I really wanted Barricade. I told him I didn't care what product I used as long as it let me do a repair in August and did well to control weeds as they came up.
- Additionally he seemed to intimate that if I'm going to do any kind of ruffing up of the soil to seed, that physically disturbing the vapor barrier created Pendamethalin would further degrade it allowing for seeds to germinate.
- On the grubs he said to put that down mid-late March is far to early for our region...he suggested mid-late May as he says in our area you have to essentially get it down in June, he's noticed a shift in timing of when beetles are starting to do their thing into July. Other SiteOne employees (2 other) seemed to agree and not in approval to this comment.

He suggested that if I'd like to do a soil test with them with an outfit called Lesco, he would sit and design for me a customer plan end-to-end from pre-m all the way to late fall with products that I can legally buy through them that will be far better and more cost effective what people get in big box stores. Everything down to application rates, timing etc.

You guys don't interprest any other lab results other then Logan Labs, right? Is Lesco labs a decent place if I elect to have a local guy help me like this?

Is that normal for them to be this supportive? He didn't seem pushy at all just super nice is how I would describe him. I walked away really comfortable with that conversation.

Riverpilot
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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by Riverpilot » March 12th, 2019, 12:53 pm

First, good to hear about your store. I've only been to 4 stores, and they all have great people.

SiteOne used to be partially owned by John Deere, as well as Lesco. I believe Deere sold it's majority stake several years back, and that's when the name changed to SiteOne. Lesco and SiteOne are family.

I personally would still use Logan Labs and have Andy give you a attack plan.
It might be interesting, if you can afford it, to have SiteOne do a test as well. For me anyway, it's nice sometimes to be able to actually sit down with someone one on one and just have a conversation about things. :shrugs:

As for being supportive? Everything I've seen at my SiteOne is exactly that. Local knowledge, supportive, nice, not pushy etc.. they have HUGE customers that buys a lot of product etc.. lawn companies etc... so they know homeowners aren't going to buy a lot of product, but they also know that maybe you'll tell your neighbors, or friends, etc... bringing them in more business.

They'll also probably have a guy who knows a lot about irrigation. That's how I found out about who THEY would get to install an irrigation system in my lawn.

Green
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Re: Sleepless in Rexford - Scheming

Post by Green » March 12th, 2019, 1:46 pm

KnickLeDime wrote:
March 12th, 2019, 9:16 am
So I met this morning with Jacob at SiteOne. Guy was super super nice, he spend many years being the head groundskeep at several local golf courses. He's also got all types of certifications etc. I was impressed by his knowledge....is this level of expertise normal for SiteOne guys?

...

Is that normal for them to be this supportive? He didn't seem pushy at all just super nice is how I would describe him. I walked away really comfortable with that conversation.
Not sure how typical, but the manager at my location has a degree in turf and horticulture, so not unheard of at the very least. That's two data points so far.

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