Seed to soil contact after killing off existing turf

[schreibdave]

I'm planning to kill off my PR lawn in August and get a KBG mix established. Once the existing lawn is dead and I scalp it with the mower, what strategy do people suggest for getting the new seed in contact with the soil? A slit seeder? (I've never seen one before and not sure they are a rental option in my area). Core aeration? Seed down then topdress with compost or soil?

What have you done?

[andy10917]

Apply the seed to the scalped lawn and apply 1/8" - 1/4" of peat moss on top. Keep the peat moss moist but not wet.

Disturbing the soil is far more trouble than aid for the grass - you will get a significantly higher amount of weeds if you mess with it. I've done enough renovations to cover 100,000 sq ft in total, and some of them were PR -> KBG conversions - I've yet to have even a partial failure.

[schreibdave]

OK. Any advice for a KBG mix that would be happy in Syracuse in a mostly full sun yard? And a supplier? Thanks

[andy10917]

Before I would recommend anything I'd like you to write up a paragraph or two on your experiences in the past couple of years. Not to insult you at all, but if IIRC you have been other-than-thrilled at your end-results on 2 or 3 full/partial renovations. I just don't remember the specifics of "why". It was no surprise to me that you had winter kill on PR in Syracuse - I gave up on the PR I love so much because of winter kill a decade ago, and I'm in an area of NY that's not as cold as Syracuse.

[schreibdave]

No offense taken. Established new lawn at new home in 2008. Northern mix. Took maybe 2 years to get typical weeds under control. After that I had a triv problem that I battled until we moved in 2016. I installed an irrigation system in 2012(?) that made a mess and required reseeding. Beyond that my biggest reno was killing off a large section of shady, wet lawn that was all triv so that I could add drainage and then regrade. I moved before the fruits of that labor became clear. During my time in that house it was the best lawn in the neighborhood. Triv in my wet, shady areas was my biggest problem.

New home and new lawn in winter 2017. Planted PR in the spring because I wanted it to come in quickly and I knew there would be hardscape construction and other disturbances to the yard in the first year or two. I love the PR in the summer and fall and have not had the heart to kill it off to transition to anything else. But the annual springtime ritual of reseeding substantial bare spots in the spring has gotten to be too much for me. So I need to transition this fall. This soil is lacking in P and K but I am working on that with regular doses of 10-10-10. Once the deficiency is made up I will go back to Milo. Even with my dead spots this lawn is again the best in the neighborhood. But that's not saying too much.

Going forward I will continue spending a lot of time and energy on the lawn but i want to be done with the annual reseeding in spring. For my next lawn I was thinking a northern mix but now that I see how much of the PR dies off it doesn't seem to make much sense to put any PR down considering that it'll be dead before long. So I guess KBG and TTTF are my options.

[andy10917]

Be aware that TTTF isn't the cold-hardiest grass type either. They're working to make it hardier, but Syracuse to the Adirondacks is borderline. If you're tired of doing reno's, know that KBG is the hardiest -- if you can meet the sun/irrigation/fertilization needs.

Nice backgrounder!

What is the sun situation at the new home?

[schreibdave]

Ok, so TTTF is out too then. We are in a micro climate that is actually harsher then the surrounding community. Higher elevation, more wind, snow and colder temps compared to down the hill.

My yard is essentially full sun. The only real shade comes from the house itself - which is a ranch.

[andy10917]

OK, we're getting somewhere! KBG sounds right for you, and you know the drill by now.

I happen to love "Bewitched" and "Blueberry", but I'm not sure that combined you'll get the nice, even look with Blueberry growing faster - unless you mow a lot. Others may chime in with ideas, or you may want to consider undertaking a monostand - but I'd think you'd love Bewtiched.

[schreibdave]

How serious is the danger of a Bewitched monostand? What would wipe it out and how likely is that to happen?

[andy10917]

It's not as tough as it was a decade ago. The only real threat today is being indecisive when you get a fungal attack. If you're going to take polls about what to do while a fungus races across the grass, you will lose the battle before you decide to take action(s). My son (SLYDER27 on here) has a Bewitched monostand, and has had zero issues, but he has me 15 minutes away if it all goes down the crapper.

[schreibdave]

What would the plan of attack be if there was a fungal outbreak?

[andy10917]

A good plan would be the Proactive Biofungicide regimen ongoing, with ready-to-go synthetic fungicides if needed in the first two years. Overkill? Maybe, but the beauty of a well-managed monostand can be awesome and oh-so-even if you commit to it. It's not difficult, but not for wafflers. You have the experience to make it work.

[schreibdave]

I did some searching here on the Proactive Bio Fungicide program.

I have about 13K of lawn. It looks like I would be putting something down at least every 3 weeks and maybe more often depending on disease pressure. For Serenade it looks like I would need 2oz per 1000 ft at least every 3 weeks. Or 26 oz every 3 weeks. Figure 9 applications from mid may to mid october. So that's 7 or 8 32 oz bottles of Serenade at about $20 a bottle. I can handle that. What is the other product(s) I would need and how often and at what rate? I am trying to figure out if the budget allows for this.

This stuff would be applied with a hose end sprayer?

[andy10917]

You can get 2.5 gallons of Serenade for $96, when you buy it in the larger size.

Unless you have Pythium Blight (you need Phosphite for that) or Summer Patch (you need Companion for that), you'd be set -- unless you get hit with a fungal disease in the first year or two). If that happens, you (quickly!) hit it with the appropriate synthetic fungicide. Unlikely but possible. After two years, you are pretty damned unlikely to get hit with a fungus if you stay on the proactive regimen.

[Paul]

I have had a Bewitched mono stand since the fall of 2016. The first year I had some small issues with rust but last year I have had no issues at all. I apply Serenade every two weeks from the end of May to mid September. I would highly recommend it. I could easily mow weekly if I wanted to.

[andy10917]

So that's 7 or 8 32 oz bottles of Serenade at about $20 a bottle.

Would you be even happier if I told you that you can have 10 quarts for $96?

This is where I've been telling people to get that size/price for the regimen:

Serenade 2.5 gallon SS Farm

[HoosierLawnGnome]

So, kill it, and make sure to rake up and bag the dead material after the scalp. Dont wait to scalp until it mats up and dont let a heavy rain mat it down before bagging.

Get the ground moist and apply seed, then roll it with a roller. Press it in a fee directions.

Top with peat moss and continue with moistening it, tenacity etx

[schreibdave]

Thank you all for the great responses. A couple more questions:

- Serenade can go down with a hose end sprayer?
- Can I put soil conditioner/kelp help or foliar iron in the sprayer at the same time?
- Is the low growth habit of Bewitched notably different than what I have experienced with my northern mix and all PR lawns?
- I like to mow high (3.5" or so). Will Bewitched look good at that height?
- The benefit of the monostand is greater uniformity. The benefit of a KBG blend is that its diversity gives you a greater margin of error. Do people mostly feel like the benefits of the monostand outweigh the risks?

Thanks

[ken-n-nancy]

- Serenade can go down with a hose end sprayer?
- Can I put soil conditioner/kelp help or foliar iron in the sprayer at the same time?
- Is the low growth habit of Bewitched notably different than what I have experienced with my northern mix and all PR lawns?
- I like to mow high (3.5" or so). Will Bewitched look good at that height?
- The benefit of the monostand is greater uniformity. The benefit of a KBG blend is that its diversity gives you a greater margin of error. Do people mostly feel like the benefits of the monostand outweigh the risks?

I've always applied Serenade with either a backpack sprayer or a push sprayer. It seems to me that a hose end sprayer would tend to deliver too much water and wash the Serenade down into the soil, rather than allowing it to remain on the grass blades where it can get in contact with the target fungi, presuming that the application of Serenade is to target primarily a leaf fungus, rather than ones that attack the roots.

I have no personal experience with kelp help or foliar iron. When I've used an SLS-based soil conditioner, I have applied that and watered it in a couple days before Serenade, as I was concerned that the soap-based conditioner would kill the (desirable) bacteria in the Serenade.

In my experience, Bewitched doesn't as much have a low growth habit as much as it exhibits slower (compact) growth. It still likes to grow upwards; it just does so more slowly than most other grasses. That said, if Bewitched is heavily fertilized without use of a PGR (plant growth regulator), it grows pretty quickly, particularly in the spring flush. I've never used a PGR, but from what I've read from others experiences, a PGR will promote more lateral growth (increased density) and less upright growth.

Personally, I like the look of slightly longer grass. I maintain our Bewitched at 3.25" for most of the summer and think it looks great at that height. I'm still at a lower height of 2.75" right now. Cutting lower will tend to increase the density of the lawn, while cutting higher will have the grass be a little thinner (less blades for a given area) but the longer grass will help hide sparse spots. Personally, I think the longer lawn looks more lush and appears darker.

The monostand vs. blend tradeoff is really a personal decision. I have had some disease challenges with my side yard Bewitched monostand, which led me to seed a blend of Bewitched & Prosperity KBG for my front lawn renovation last fall. I think the color match and growth rate match between Bewitched & Prosperity is good (I already had each in different portions of my lawn) and wanted to try the 2-way blend.

I don't really have enough experience with the Bewitched & Prosperity blend to see if it will withstand disease better than the Bewitched monostand. Ideally, the more proactive applications of Serenade that I have planned for this year will be completely successful for both the Bewitched monostand in my side lawn and the Bewitched & Prosperity blend in the front lawn!

Lastly, I would caution you in putting too much reliance in the single-data-point experiences that any of us share here. Without a scientific study having side-by-side plots in the same weather conditions, maintenance programs, fungal threats, and a host of other factors, the individual experiences of folks here, or elsewhere, surely vary more by those other uncontrolled variables, rather than the genetic differences between two different KBG cultivars. Even with NTEP data, when one digs into the detailed comparison between grass A and grass B at different sites, the "random variation" often seems to be more specific. It's not like grass A is always darker than grass B, or always more disease resistant, or always more drought tolerant, etc., especially when comparing two different cultivars of KBG. The differences between species are much more pronounced (say between TTTF and KBG).

In the end, you're going to need to make your own decision as to what is best for you, based upon what you want to accomplish and what you feel comfortable doing. Remember to have fun -- this is a hobby after all!

[Green]

I'm currently patch seeding, and am experimenting with not scalping some patches, leaving about 2 inches of dead grass. I'm also experimenting with no peat moss on the spots that are less likely to dry out. So far so good; I have germination on the non-scalped patches that included peat moss. The ones without peat moss were seeded more recently, so I'll have to wait for the results.