southern-ct-4's August 2019 partial renovation (fixing poa triv lawn)

Discuss how to and whether you should renovate your lawn
southern-ct-4
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southern-ct-4's August 2019 partial renovation (fixing poa triv lawn)

Post by southern-ct-4 » July 10th, 2019, 10:35 am

As noted in (one of) my poa triv threads, I killed off (blanket glyphosate on 6/13 & 6/20, with a little here and there as/when needed over the past couple of weeks) several small to medium areas (a few to maybe 25 sq ft here and there) and 1 large area in my front yard (750 sq ft or so).

I plan to seed those areas with a nomix (60% KBG / 20% PR / 20% FF, made myself from all gold tag seed from seedsuperstore and a couple other online vendors, at a 3.5 lb/1k rate).

Prodiamine should wear off on 8/9, so any time after that I can begin.

Definitely looking for advice on best practices for prepping the areas (it's now my understanding that I shouldn't aerate for fear of bringing buried poa triv to the surface).

Some of the smaller areas were killed off in April/May, and they are now almost bare dirt (maybe a little bit of dead grass but mostly dirt). The larger front yard area though is still 100% dead grass (a few inches tall). I assume if the dead grass doesn't go away on its own, I should, at a minimum, mow it (and possibly bag it) as low as I can? Or do I actually leave it as it'll provide protection for the seeds?

Other than possibly mowing/bagging the dead grass, would I just spread my seed and cover with peat moss (and possibly hay as well)? Should I not even be scratching/raking the surface at all for fear of bringing up poa triv?

I'm also not sure what to look for in terms of temperatures, as (before I discovered ATY) I was always one for overseeding in early to mid September when it was (generally, but not always) much cooler that mid-August. Is 8/9 too early/hot to seed?

Finally, and I assume the answer is no, but does it make any sense to put down the KBG first (as it could take 2 weeks to germinate) and then a week or so later put down the PR/FF? That way they all grow at the roughly the same time? Or not worth the risk of putting so much traffic on the area a week after seeding the KBG?

Thanks so much for any suggestions/help!

southern-ct-4
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Re: southern-ct-4's August 2019 partial renovation (fixing poa triv lawn)

Post by southern-ct-4 » July 17th, 2019, 3:23 pm

bump. thanks for any help/suggestions

Green
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Re: southern-ct-4's August 2019 partial renovation (fixing poa triv lawn)

Post by Green » July 18th, 2019, 7:35 pm

southern-ct-4 wrote:
July 17th, 2019, 3:23 pm
bump. thanks for any help/suggestions
For the dead grass: You'll need to fluff it up/thin it out to get proper seed to soil contact, even if it's scalped down already. Do you have a good rake for doing that? If not, I have a suggestion...I've written about this particular rake before. Beware...scalping dead grass is a messy job, and if you have grass allergies like me, you'll be feeling it after. Get an allergy plan in place. I suggest a dust mask, and then sterile sinus rinse solutions after.

Also, what are you using to topdress with? I suggest peat moss. Again, wear the mask when using it.

How are you dealing with weed prevention? Liquid Tenacity spray? Granular?

Are you mixing the seed together or applying the components individually? If so, mix thoroughly, and once mixed, scoop from the bottom of the bag to make sure you get all the species. KBG seed is smallest, and tends to sink in a bag or in the spreader if it's vibrated (as when you're spreading), making the larger seed like Ryegrass and Fescue "float" to the top. You can visually inspect the spreader every few passes to see.

What's the watering plan/method?

southern-ct-4
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Re: southern-ct-4's August 2019 partial renovation (fixing poa triv lawn)

Post by southern-ct-4 » July 19th, 2019, 8:54 am

Thanks Green.

Please let me know what rake you recommend, and please let me know how careful I need to be not to disturb the soil too much and risk bringing up buried triv seeds.

I plan to top dress with peat moss, though I do have some left over top soil from last year, so I might use that to some extent as well, but peat moss is the main plan.

I'll spray tenacity at seeding.

I was going to mix the seeds together myself, though applying them individually seems like a good idea! Also, along the lines of applying individually, did my thought above about possibly seeding at different times make any sense, or is that just dumb and I should seed all at the same time?

I have a 4 outlet wifi sprinkler so watering is no issue. I'll initially keep the soil moist essentially non stop, by watering a little every few hours.

Thanks again!

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Re: southern-ct-4's August 2019 partial renovation (fixing poa triv lawn)

Post by Green » July 19th, 2019, 11:02 pm

You're welcome.

So, first, the rake. The one I use for this purpose is called "Groundskeeper". I got mine at an Ace Hardware store a few years ago. I love using it because it gets the job done without pulling out too much...and it takes very little effort compared to any other rake I've used. I also recently learned that the tines are apparently individually replaceable if they break. Costs about 30 bucks. Not sure if there are other brands of the same thing or not.

As far the weed/Triv seeds, while you do want to be careful, I feel like that's secondary to getting the old grass fluffed up/thinned out and cut low.

As an aside: when I did my seeding this Spring, I kept the grass full length in some areas and just fluffed it up as I did not have enough peat moss. I used the existing dead lawn as straw and walked on it to mat it down after seeding. The germination progress was quite delayed compared to the areas that had peat moss, but it eventually caught up and came in just as thick in those areas. I’m not necessarily suggesting you do this, but thought you’d find it interesting.

Tenacity sounds good. Don't worry about the warnings on it for fine fescue seed. All it does is slow it down a bit; it doesn't kill it. Just don't go over the 4 oz per Acre rate and you'll be fine.

I like applying the seed individually because it gives me better control. I weigh out the proper amounts, and then apply the components one by one. This works well when seeding large areas. But when I did my Spring Triv kill and reseed this year, I took a different approach. I mixed the seed together and applied it by hand, because it was mostly small patches and it was more convenient. So, pros and cons to both methods.

Regarding staggering the seedings, if you're a perfectionist, you can do that. It may reduce the seedling dominance of the faster germinators slightly. The timeline I'd recommend if doing so is:
Day 1: Seed KBG
Day 3: Seed Fine Fescue
Day 5: Seed PR (but walk very carefully). Topdress and Tenacity.

Can't say I've used that approach very often, but it's viable if you like experimenting. If not, then just put it down all the same day.

I also have experience spraying Tenacity a day or two prior to actual germination. It did not seem to harm anything. Again, I’m not suggesting it as optimal.

By the way, last year when I did my low-input overseed, it was late in the season, into September, and I got a flood a week or so after seeding. I had to break a bunch of rules and carefully walk on the seedbed, and use the rake to move the germinating seed and peat moss around, because it had piled up in certain areas where the water took it.


southern-ct-4
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Re: southern-ct-4's August 2019 partial renovation (fixing poa triv lawn)

Post by southern-ct-4 » July 20th, 2019, 2:55 pm

Awesome. Thanks for all the info. The rake looks good and I can see why it's 'gentler' to use.

I think I will try seeding individually (all at the same time, not staggered a few days apart), to get better control like you said. Although in smaller spots here and there I'll probably do as you did; mix it and spread by hand.

Finally, as a general question, not really specific to this situation, what are your thoughts on timing/temps? Do I wait for a particular air/soil temp before seeding, or does it generally not matter by mid-August (especially if I'm keeping the soil moist all day)?

Thanks again!

Green
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Re: southern-ct-4's August 2019 partial renovation (fixing poa triv lawn)

Post by Green » July 20th, 2019, 9:07 pm

Unless it's still 90 every day, which would give you trouble keeping it moist, I think August 15th is a fine target date for seeding.

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Re: southern-ct-4's August 2019 partial renovation (fixing poa triv lawn)

Post by southern-ct-4 » July 20th, 2019, 10:09 pm

Great, thank you

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Re: southern-ct-4's August 2019 partial renovation (fixing poa triv lawn)

Post by southern-ct-4 » August 9th, 2019, 5:18 pm

How much rain is too much immediately after seeding?

Obviously things can/will change by then, but next Tuesday is looking like .5" over the course of the day (not a downpour of .5 over a couple hours).

Is it safe to seed on Monday (assuming the forecast looks about the same), or should I wait until after it rains (in case we get too much in too short a period)?

Thanks!

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Re: southern-ct-4's August 2019 partial renovation (fixing poa triv lawn)

Post by Green » August 9th, 2019, 9:55 pm

Slow and steady rain of 0.5 inch over a few hours is often fine.

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Re: southern-ct-4's August 2019 partial renovation (fixing poa triv lawn)

Post by southern-ct-4 » August 10th, 2019, 9:29 am

Great, thank you.

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Re: southern-ct-4's August 2019 partial renovation (fixing poa triv lawn)

Post by southern-ct-4 » August 15th, 2019, 8:42 am

The forecast changed to about an 1" of rain with possibly thunderstorms, so I held off until after. Yesterday I seeded and covered with peat moss. I'll (possibly) be adding some straw on top today.

2 questions; First: given that I have a good 4-prong wifi hose timer system setup (looks ugly with hoses everywhere but works well), what do you recommend as far as watering? I can literally water (for example) 5 minutes every hour, 10 minutes every few hours, 30 minutes 3x/day, etc... Also, should I use a different practice for the 1 big area that I killed off (where most of the water is only hitting that dead area) vs. the rest of the yard where the sprinklers will be hitting both dead areas and live grass? And should I not water after a certain time of day (like normal watering practices) or is it different since it's only for a short time?

Second: Is the straw necessary given that I already used peat moss and can water very frequently? Is straw only beneficial if one can't water as often? Or is it just always a good idea to use it?

Thanks!!

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Re: southern-ct-4's August 2019 partial renovation (fixing poa triv lawn)

Post by Green » August 17th, 2019, 9:01 pm

For watering, you basically want enough to fully wet the soil surface (and if using peat moss, you want the stuff under it to get damp). So, trial and error as far as how long and how often. And it'll vary based on the temps and amount of sun.

You probably won't need to water after 4 or 5PM this time of year...it should stay moist all night with that.

Straw isn't necessary in most cases if using peat moss. Maybe on a slope. The peat moss is really what holds the water, not the straw.

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Re: southern-ct-4's August 2019 partial renovation (fixing poa triv lawn)

Post by southern-ct-4 » August 18th, 2019, 10:27 am

Great, thanks so much.

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Re: southern-ct-4's August 2019 partial renovation (fixing poa triv lawn)

Post by southern-ct-4 » September 5th, 2019, 4:48 pm

It's been 3 weeks since seed down, and the PR is, in some cases, a couple inches tall (1 inch in other areas).

I hope/assume the KBG is/is about to germinate (if some hasn't already).

I've been watering 5x/day (ever few hours between 6 AM and 4 PM), for between 5 and 15 minutes each (depending on the size of the area each sprinkler covers, as some go almost 360 degrees, others a much smaller back and forth). Seems to have worked well as most areas are looking pretty good.

Should I adjust my watering at this point? Still try to keep it moist all day long, or water a bit less so I don't over-water the PR, but hope it's enough for the KBG?

Thanks!

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Re: southern-ct-4's August 2019 partial renovation (fixing poa triv lawn)

Post by southern-ct-4 » September 6th, 2019, 8:48 am

Sorry, 1 more quick update/question; should I go ahead and pull anything that looks like the below, and assume that it's not a good grass (i.e. it's either triv coming back or some other undesirable)?

Thank you.


Image

Image

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Re: southern-ct-4's August 2019 partial renovation (fixing poa triv lawn)

Post by andy10917 » September 6th, 2019, 8:55 am

Yes - try to minimize damage to nearby good grass when doing it.

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Re: southern-ct-4's August 2019 partial renovation (fixing poa triv lawn)

Post by southern-ct-4 » September 6th, 2019, 8:56 am

andy10917 wrote:
September 6th, 2019, 8:55 am
Yes - try to minimize damage to nearby good grass when doing it.
Thanks Andy. Any thoughts on my watering schedule now that the PR is coming in nicely, but KBG has either just started to germinate or will soon?

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Re: southern-ct-4's August 2019 partial renovation (fixing poa triv lawn)

Post by andy10917 » September 6th, 2019, 5:11 pm

I would stay with the light/frequent until you don't see much new germination for a few days straight. If you water too much, next week you'll be asking when you should start mowing because of the PR getting tall. It's a fine line between too little and too much - without many rules to follow.

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Re: southern-ct-4's August 2019 partial renovation (fixing poa triv lawn)

Post by southern-ct-4 » September 6th, 2019, 5:13 pm

Great, thanks!

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