Schreibdave's 2019 KBG Reno

Discuss how to and whether you should renovate your lawn
schreibdave
Posts: 1123
Joined: April 14th, 2010, 7:01 pm
Location: Syracuse, NY
Grass Type: Bewitched, Award and Rhapsody
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Experienced

Schreibdave's 2019 KBG Reno

Post by schreibdave » July 17th, 2019, 8:11 am

This will be my first "kill what I have and start over" experience. Most of my new lawn experience is starting from scratch with new construction - usually with seed down in the spring.

Moved in 2 yrs ago and established a PR lawn which came in fast and nice but the winter kill and resulting annual spring reseeding has become too much. So this year I will kill off half of my yard 13K yard and put down bewitched, award and rhapsody. Next year I will do the other half.

I am limited somewhat by what I can water with my collection of hoses and impact sprinklers but also by my dog who needs a part of the lawn for her business and sanity.

My plan:

Now
-Get a couple yards of inexpensive town compost for topdressing (more below) and stage it where it will be used
-Work on my sprinkler set up
-Possibly add a new hose bib on NW side of the house
-Decide which of the 4 quadrants of lawn I will tackle this year
-Figure out how to use temporary fencing to keep the dog out of my reno area
-Get my seed from Preferred Seed's local distributor - who unfortunately seems unaware that they are a distributor
-Avoid taking on new family/social commitments during the early stages of the reno
-Source lawn roller and starter with tenacity

Schedule (based on the early onset of fall in my area and my vacation schedule)
July 28 - RU
July 30 - scalp and bag
July 31 - level some low/high spots with top soil
Aug 3-4 or 10-11 - Seed,starter, top dress, roll

The kill - Should I use RU or generic glyphosate? My recollection is that RU works faster because it has another ingredient but that generic is obviously cheaper. Is RU any more effective than just Glyphosate?

Seed down date - I have in my mind that folks here had advised me that Aug 15 or so was the best time for seed down in my area. I am looking to go a little earlier because of my work schedule and because fall come on fast in my area. But I will reconsider if people think that's a mistake.

The cheap town compost - I know there is a danger of it containing weed seed. But I used it the last 2 springs to top dress and those areas turned out no more weedy than the areas that I didn't hit. The problem with peat moss here is that we have almost constant wind. So anything "thrown down" like peat moss results in it landing where I didn't intend it to be. I have an unlimited supply of top soil (new construction development) so I could use that instead.

Scalp & bag - Does my plan to wait 2-3 days after RU make sense?

Starter with Meso - What's a good source? I dont recall seeing it in the big box stores. Maybe Site One (Lesco)?

I am open to any suggestions. Thanks

User avatar
ken-n-nancy
Posts: 2571
Joined: July 17th, 2014, 3:58 pm
Location: Bedford, NH
Grass Type: Front: KBG (Bewitched+Prosperity); Side: Bewitched KBG; Back: Fine Fescue Blend + Prosperity
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Experienced

Re: Schreibdave's 2019 KBG Reno

Post by ken-n-nancy » July 17th, 2019, 10:58 am

schreibdave wrote:
July 17th, 2019, 8:11 am
This will be my first "kill what I have and start over" experience. Most of my new lawn experience is starting from scratch with new construction - usually with seed down in the spring.
Congrats! You'll find all fall renovation to be a little easier in many respects -- less of a struggle keeping the seedlings watered and less weed pressure!

Overall, your plan seems like a good one! Just a few suggestions below.
schreibdave wrote:
July 17th, 2019, 8:11 am
Now
-Avoid taking on new family/social commitments during the early stages of the reno
-Source lawn roller and starter with tenacity
"... new family/social commitments..." had me laugh. Most of our renovations had us going on out-of-state vacations a day or two after seed-down and gone for a couple weeks. Relied on the automated irrigation system to handle watering. Your approach sounds like a better one!

For a lawn roller, I purchased a used one on craigslist. Much cheaper than new, and you can resell after the renovation so that you don't have to store it. Renting it is another alternative, but purchase / resell via craigslist is practically as easy.
schreibdave wrote:
July 17th, 2019, 8:11 am
The kill - Should I use RU or generic glyphosate? My recollection is that RU works faster because it has another ingredient but that generic is obviously cheaper. Is RU any more effective than just Glyphosate?
Personally, I prefer the generic glyphosate-only grass & weed killer. It does give a slower kill, but faster kill isn't really better if one has the time to wait for the full kill. Glyphosate-only takes about 2-3 days to show visible pending demise. Full browning isn't for about a week. However, there's no need to wait for full browning. Scalping after 2 days (while still green) is fine -- it is completely doomed at that point anyway.

A potential issue with a mid-July kill is that any grass which has gone really dormant may not be killed, and could return again in the fall. You want all the grass to be green and growing when applying glyphosate. If you have dormant Poa trivialis patches, you could regret not having killed them off in the spring when they were still growing. If you have patches of known weedy grasses that are still green in your lawn as of currently, I'd spray them ASAP to ensure they don't go dormant on you in the next couple weeks.
schreibdave wrote:
July 17th, 2019, 8:11 am
Seed down date - I have in my mind that folks here had advised me that Aug 15 or so was the best time for seed down in my area. I am looking to go a little earlier because of my work schedule and because fall come on fast in my area. But I will reconsider if people think that's a mistake.
Aug 10-15 is just about ideal for our latitude. The idea is that the seedlings get pretty full germination by about Aug 17-30, so that temperatures are just starting to fall as the seedlings are getting vulnerable. The dangers of the earlier seeding are dealing with the possibility of a serious heat wave in mid-August and increased likelihood of washout from summer thunderstorms in the 5-14 days between seed-down and good germination coverage. Good irrigation can mitigate the risk of the heat wave. Thunderstorm avoidance is a "roll of the dice" anyway.
schreibdave wrote:
July 17th, 2019, 8:11 am
The cheap town compost - I know there is a danger of it containing weed seed. But I used it the last 2 springs to top dress and those areas turned out no more weedy than the areas that I didn't hit. The problem with peat moss here is that we have almost constant wind. So anything "thrown down" like peat moss results in it landing where I didn't intend it to be. I have an unlimited supply of top soil (new construction development) so I could use that instead.
Compost instead of peat moss is a divergence from typical advice on this site, but it sounds like you are making an informed decision. It's your lawn and you're the one that gets to make the decisions and live with the consequences, good or bad. Your thought process seems reasonable. Peat moss has basically zero risk of introducing weed seeds, but it sounds like you have positive experiences with your compost source that give you a level of increased trust vs. just random bags of compost from the big box store (which tend to be terrible for weed seeds.)
schreibdave wrote:
July 17th, 2019, 8:11 am
Scalp & bag - Does my plan to wait 2-3 days after RU make sense?
I have found that 2-3 days after RU is just about perfect. I like to wait until the grass is starting to dry out (less mass to remove when the blades are starting to show death) but before the grass starts turning really brown. If you wait too late, the grass can get matted down and won't "lift" to be mowed, which results in a lot of raking. From my perspective, better to scalp a little early than a little late.

See pics of my scalps (3 and 5 days after glyphosate) in my renovation log from last year. viewtopic.php?f=13&t=24374#p326963 My one regret is that I don't think I scalped low enough and should have gone a bit lower, even though the blade was hitting soil in places. I had an old mower blade I could have put on that I wouldn't have minded hitting dirt. I'm torn about whether multiple scalping cuts at decreasing heights is a good or bad thing. There are some advantages and disadvantages to either way.
schreibdave wrote:
July 17th, 2019, 8:11 am
Starter with Meso - What's a good source? I dont recall seeing it in the big box stores. Maybe Site One (Lesco)?
Some big box stores carry it. More common to find in garden centers like Agway. Site One is an option, too.

I look forward to reading about and seeing your continuing progress. I'm kind of going through withdrawal not doing a renovation this year. Maybe I'll succumb and renovate a portion of our lawn after all...

schreibdave
Posts: 1123
Joined: April 14th, 2010, 7:01 pm
Location: Syracuse, NY
Grass Type: Bewitched, Award and Rhapsody
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Experienced

Re: Schreibdave's 2019 KBG Reno

Post by schreibdave » July 17th, 2019, 3:35 pm

Thanks K & N

Looks like HD has the roller for rent and stater with Meso so I have that figured out.

Yea, I know the town compost stuff is frowned upon here but I have used it every year for the last 13 years for one thing or another and it doesn't produce any more weeds than they areas w/o the compost. And it is easy to fling from the back of the truck or wheel barrow. When I have used peat moss it's a real PITA to get it down where I want it.

One thought that occurred to me is that I may have a fungal issue now with my PR and I wonder if I should start treatments now to get a jump on killing off whatever might survive in the soil. While I was away for a week it was very hot and humid with no rain. I came back to a lawn that had brown blades mixed with the green. I thought it was heat/drought stress but now I think maybe one of the 3 cultivars of PR succumbed to a fungus.

I do plan to lower the blade on my Honda walk behind as low as it will go and I will use the resulting uneven scalp to ID my low and high spots. New blades aren't too expensive. Also I injured the rotator cuffs in BOTH shoulders in the spring raking the winter killed PR up. I am still in PT for that believe it or not and surgery could be necessary. So I need to minimize the amount of raking I have to do.

So you didn't put peat moss down in those areas where you had grass stuble? And that worked ok?

I will take some pictures today and start posting them regularly.

Thanks!

schreibdave
Posts: 1123
Joined: April 14th, 2010, 7:01 pm
Location: Syracuse, NY
Grass Type: Bewitched, Award and Rhapsody
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Experienced

Re: Schreibdave's 2019 KBG Reno

Post by schreibdave » July 18th, 2019, 6:11 am

Preferred Seed's local distributor is not doing them any favors. I have called once and physically gone there once and neither time did the employees know what I was talking about. And as of right now, the person who supposedly does know has not called me. Both times they tried to steer me to the seed they had on the shelf - which was not Preferred Seed's product and not the cultivars I was looking for. Preferred Seed does not sell direct to customers in counties where they have a distributor.

The other obstacle I am working through is the 9 Green Thumb impact sprinklers I bought 2 years ago that do not reverse. I discovered the problem when I bought them but at the time assumed the problem was a result of my low water pressure - so I did not return them. I used them in full circle mode. Now I have a pump that increases water pressure to the entire house and even with 50+ psi at the end of the hose the sprinklers will not reverse so it's clearly a defect. I tried to return them and my local True Value (for whom this product is made) acknowledged that there is a problem with them but wouldn't take them back. I have made 4-5 different modifications to them in the hopes of getting them to reverse but no luck. So I will probably have to invest in a bunch of new ones. That's a drag.

User avatar
andy10917
Posts: 29739
Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 10:48 pm
Location: NY (Lower Hudson Valley)
Grass Type: Emblem KBG (Front); Blueberry KBG Monostand (Back)
Lawn Size: 1 acre-2 acre
Level: Advanced

Re: Schreibdave's 2019 KBG Reno

Post by andy10917 » July 18th, 2019, 10:20 am

You might want to take a look at sprinklerwarehouse.com - I've had (and numerous others) very good luck with their products, customer service and replacement parts.


schreibdave
Posts: 1123
Joined: April 14th, 2010, 7:01 pm
Location: Syracuse, NY
Grass Type: Bewitched, Award and Rhapsody
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Experienced

Re: Schreibdave's 2019 KBG Reno

Post by schreibdave » July 19th, 2019, 8:51 am

"You might want to take a look at sprinklerwarehouse.com - I've had (and numerous others) very good luck with their products, customer service and replacement parts."

Thanks. Since I am going to make a mess of the yard anyway I am considering a rudimentary DIY in ground irrigation system. Basically bury the irrigation hose, attach a pop up sprinkler at one end and fashion a hose bib connection at the other end. My original plan involved buying more hose and hose-end sprinklers but it seems like burying poly hose and pop up heads would be no more expensive and of course better looking and permanent.

This weekends project is going to be adding a couple more hose bibs plumbed with 3/4 pipe. I am hoping that those put out a lot of H2O and expand my options for sprinkler head placement and number.

Andy - my last app of 10-10-10 was June 20th. If I am putting seed down in early August can i do another app of the 10-10-10 now? My soil test shows me low on P and K. And if I do, would I still put starter fert down with the seed?

Thanks

User avatar
andy10917
Posts: 29739
Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 10:48 pm
Location: NY (Lower Hudson Valley)
Grass Type: Emblem KBG (Front); Blueberry KBG Monostand (Back)
Lawn Size: 1 acre-2 acre
Level: Advanced

Re: Schreibdave's 2019 KBG Reno

Post by andy10917 » July 19th, 2019, 10:18 am

Andy - my last app of 10-10-10 was June 20th. If I am putting seed down in early August can i do another app of the 10-10-10 now? My soil test shows me low on P and K. And if I do, would I still put starter fert down with the seed?
Is the existing lawn dead?

schreibdave
Posts: 1123
Joined: April 14th, 2010, 7:01 pm
Location: Syracuse, NY
Grass Type: Bewitched, Award and Rhapsody
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Experienced

Re: Schreibdave's 2019 KBG Reno

Post by schreibdave » July 19th, 2019, 12:32 pm

No have not sprayed yet.

User avatar
andy10917
Posts: 29739
Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 10:48 pm
Location: NY (Lower Hudson Valley)
Grass Type: Emblem KBG (Front); Blueberry KBG Monostand (Back)
Lawn Size: 1 acre-2 acre
Level: Advanced

Re: Schreibdave's 2019 KBG Reno

Post by andy10917 » July 19th, 2019, 12:52 pm

OK - since you're going to kill the lawn and the 10-10-10 will provide Nitrogen at 1 lb/K, it may force it to keep growing, which is stressful but will aid in keeping it out of dormancy. You really don't care if it is stressed, and RoundUp only works on green, active grass (not dormant). Do it.

There is no reason to add "Starter Fertilizer" at seed-down time - the grass seed lives off of the food in the seed for a period of time after germination. There is nothing magical about "Starter Fertilizer" - it is Nitrogen and Phosphorus. Your 10-10-10 is Nitrogen, Phosphorus and Potassium. That will work fine, but I actually prefer to wait until the grass emerges from Sprout-and-Pout. Figure on 14-21 days for the grass to germinate after seed-down, a bit of growth, and 10-14 days of Sprout-and-Pout. That puts you out to about a month after seed-down before the grass really could use a shot of fertilizer. Use the 10-10-10 then.

So, bottom-line now: hit it with the 10-10-10 now, kill it when its right, go seed-down, and hit it again at the end of Sprout-and-Pout.

Capiche?

schreibdave
Posts: 1123
Joined: April 14th, 2010, 7:01 pm
Location: Syracuse, NY
Grass Type: Bewitched, Award and Rhapsody
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Experienced

Re: Schreibdave's 2019 KBG Reno

Post by schreibdave » July 19th, 2019, 10:39 pm

Yes, thanks.

I suspect that my PR has a fungus. I don't care because I will be killing it off. But should I be concerned that it will live on the dead blades and in the soil and attack my new KBG?

User avatar
andy10917
Posts: 29739
Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 10:48 pm
Location: NY (Lower Hudson Valley)
Grass Type: Emblem KBG (Front); Blueberry KBG Monostand (Back)
Lawn Size: 1 acre-2 acre
Level: Advanced

Re: Schreibdave's 2019 KBG Reno

Post by andy10917 » July 19th, 2019, 11:59 pm

Dave: that's an impossible question to answer - there are 5.1 million different species of fungi in the world. I have know idea what fungus you might have, nor whether your KBG cultivars will be susceptible to it.

schreibdave
Posts: 1123
Joined: April 14th, 2010, 7:01 pm
Location: Syracuse, NY
Grass Type: Bewitched, Award and Rhapsody
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Experienced

Re: Schreibdave's 2019 KBG Reno

Post by schreibdave » July 20th, 2019, 8:11 am

OK. Do you feel strongly about the best date to put seed down in central NY? Ken & Nancy are thinking somewhere between August 10 and 15. I was thinking a little earlier.

Maybe get the lawn killed off and wait and see what the forecast looks like for the first few weeks of August? Not that I trust the weather guessers but it's all I would have to go on.

User avatar
andy10917
Posts: 29739
Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 10:48 pm
Location: NY (Lower Hudson Valley)
Grass Type: Emblem KBG (Front); Blueberry KBG Monostand (Back)
Lawn Size: 1 acre-2 acre
Level: Advanced

Re: Schreibdave's 2019 KBG Reno

Post by andy10917 » July 20th, 2019, 8:23 am

I don't see how you could go any earlier than 8/15 -- you don't have seed yet, haven't killed the lawn with multiple applications of RU, and scalping after everything is dead still has to be done. That's a lot of work still, just to be prepped for seed-down.

Am I missing something?

schreibdave
Posts: 1123
Joined: April 14th, 2010, 7:01 pm
Location: Syracuse, NY
Grass Type: Bewitched, Award and Rhapsody
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Experienced

Re: Schreibdave's 2019 KBG Reno

Post by schreibdave » July 20th, 2019, 9:30 am

I got my seed yesterday. And I am on vacation (but home) the week of July 29- Aug 2. So Saturday and Sunday August 3 or 4 would be the ideal time for me to put seed down. If that's not to early. I could RU tomorrow. That would give the lawn 2 weeks to die.

The real question is what the best date for seed down in my area is - and I will work towards that.

schreibdave
Posts: 1123
Joined: April 14th, 2010, 7:01 pm
Location: Syracuse, NY
Grass Type: Bewitched, Award and Rhapsody
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Experienced

Re: Schreibdave's 2019 KBG Reno

Post by schreibdave » July 20th, 2019, 9:30 am

I got my seed yesterday. And I am on vacation (but home) the week of July 29- Aug 2. So Saturday and Sunday August 3 or 4 would be the ideal time for me to put seed down. If that's not to early. I could RU tomorrow. That would give the lawn 2 weeks to die.

The real question is what the best date for seed down in my area is - and I will work towards that.

User avatar
ken-n-nancy
Posts: 2571
Joined: July 17th, 2014, 3:58 pm
Location: Bedford, NH
Grass Type: Front: KBG (Bewitched+Prosperity); Side: Bewitched KBG; Back: Fine Fescue Blend + Prosperity
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Experienced

Re: Schreibdave's 2019 KBG Reno

Post by ken-n-nancy » July 20th, 2019, 9:43 am

schreibdave wrote:
July 17th, 2019, 3:35 pm
Looks like HD has the roller for rent and stater with Meso so I have that figured out.
Good to have both of those items out of the way.
schreibdave wrote:
July 17th, 2019, 3:35 pm
Yea, I know the town compost stuff is frowned upon here but I have used it every year for the last 13 years for one thing or another and it doesn't produce any more weeds than they areas w/o the compost.
Sounds like you have a good source of compost. Your experience with it counts for a lot.
schreibdave wrote:
July 17th, 2019, 3:35 pm
So you didn't put peat moss down in those areas where you had grass stuble? And that worked ok?
I did get best germination where I put peat moss down. I had good germination in places with grass stubble and visible soil. I had weak but acceptable germination where I had very thick grass stubble and could barely see any soil without really separating dead grass blades. An advantage of retaining stubble is that it holds the soil in place to prevent erosion, and also helps holds the new seeds in place, too. (Water doesn't just "sheet" across an area and flow is slowed down by going around all the grass blades. Seeds also kind of "stick" to the bases of the old dead grass blades.)

User avatar
andy10917
Posts: 29739
Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 10:48 pm
Location: NY (Lower Hudson Valley)
Grass Type: Emblem KBG (Front); Blueberry KBG Monostand (Back)
Lawn Size: 1 acre-2 acre
Level: Advanced

Re: Schreibdave's 2019 KBG Reno

Post by andy10917 » July 20th, 2019, 10:00 am

Seed doesn't much care whether it's still hot outside, as long as you can keep it moist. But when the grass germinates, the fragile seedlings have very minimal roots, and need to be watered 3X-5X a day -- can you do that? They won't stand a 95 degree day without the water, The August 15th seed-down date is used because the 2-3 week germination time puts the new seedlings up at about the Labor Day time when conditions in the north are less challenging from both a temperature and fungal-disease perspective.

About the RU -- you'll definitely need two rounds of RU at least a week apart -- everyone misses spots and has spots that don't die easily.

If you understand that you're putting yourself and the lawn into more challenging scenarios, then do what you feel you can handle...

schreibdave
Posts: 1123
Joined: April 14th, 2010, 7:01 pm
Location: Syracuse, NY
Grass Type: Bewitched, Award and Rhapsody
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Experienced

Re: Schreibdave's 2019 KBG Reno

Post by schreibdave » July 20th, 2019, 5:29 pm

Ok. Aug 15th it is. I spent last night and today adding 3 new hose bibs and upgrading the original two from 1/2" pex to 3/4" pex. So between the 3/4" supply to the bibs and my pump that increases the street pressure from 35 psi to 60-70 psi, I am in a much better place in terms of my ability to get water down onto the lawn. 5 hose bibs all with timers, and whatever hose and sprinkler quantity I need should be enough to keep handle my 6500-8000 sqft area. I am not doing my back yard this year.

schreibdave
Posts: 1123
Joined: April 14th, 2010, 7:01 pm
Location: Syracuse, NY
Grass Type: Bewitched, Award and Rhapsody
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Experienced

Re: Schreibdave's 2019 KBG Reno

Post by schreibdave » July 23rd, 2019, 5:54 am

When I put my seed down, what should my Tenacity plan be? Based on Andy's advice I will not be doing the starter with meso so I would apply the tenacity with a back pack sprayer. What rate should I use? And what kind of weed seed germination will this suppress? Thanks

schreibdave
Posts: 1123
Joined: April 14th, 2010, 7:01 pm
Location: Syracuse, NY
Grass Type: Bewitched, Award and Rhapsody
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Experienced

Re: Schreibdave's 2019 KBG Reno

Post by schreibdave » July 23rd, 2019, 6:40 am

Front (about 3K sqft)
Image

Image

Left side side (About 2K sqft)

Image

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests