NGB20’s Fall Renovation 2020
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- Posts: 14
- Joined: June 4th, 2020, 11:12 pm
- Location: Flint, MI
- Grass Type: Kentucky Bluegrass
- Lawn Size: 10000-20000
- Level: Some Experience
NGB20’s Fall Renovation 2020
I am new on this block, but I’ve lurked for a bit and know a guy who has successfully done this, so I am ready to do this. Yep, never been more ready.
The project consists of the front yard of my property. Roughly 2000 sqft which is unevenly spit into 2 separate sections split by the driveway. My current grass is thin, mismatched and weak. I have killed most of the broadleaf weeds with weed and feed, but that really exposed the sparseness of the grass. I can’t look at it anymore. I want something better. So KBG for me. I want a lush lawn that is dark and nice to look at but can also stand up to moderate traffic. I am doing only the front as a “ trial” for a potential full backyard reno in 2021.
The shopping phase is underway. I have RU, hoses, timers, sprinklers, sprayer. Tenacity has been ordered. I need seed, which I have sourced buy not purchased and is a KBG blend (Award, Nuglade, jackpot & Everest Star), sod quality. And I haven’t bought peat moss yet. Those are the thing I envision needing before months end. Just so I have it and don’t have to think about it come G-day.Once my soil test results are in, I will have to determine what amendments are needed and get them down.
I do have some reservations in regards to my phase 7. Does that seem right to starter fertilizer after sprout and pout as opposed to at seed down?
I have a pretty detailed working plan that goes a little like this…
Lawn Reno
- [x] Soil test sent in - 6/5/20
- [x] Soil test ordered - 5/21/20
- [ ] Soil test results rx’d -
Phase 1: Planned start:
- [ ] Glyphosate application #1. (7/18/20)
3oz/1000sqft (2000sqft)
Phase 2: Scalp & Bag #1
- [ ] Scalp & bag 3-5 days after glyphosate application (7/21-23/20)
Phase 3: Glyphosate Application #2
- [ ] 8/1/20 - 2wks after initial application
Phase 4: Scalp & Bag #2
- [ ] 3-5 days after Glyphosate application. (8/4-6/20)
Phase 5: Glyphosate Application #3
- [ ] Spot treat as needed 48 hrs before seed down (8/13-15/20)
Phase 6: Seed Down
- [ ] Seed down 8/15-8/17
- [ ] Apply tenacity 4oz/acre rate
- [ ] Peat down @ 1/2 inch coverage
Phase 7: Starter Fert Application
- [ ] Apply starter fertilizer following completion of “sprout and pout”?
- [ ] Second dose of tenacity?
Thanks for making it this far. Any and all input Is greatly appreciated.
The project consists of the front yard of my property. Roughly 2000 sqft which is unevenly spit into 2 separate sections split by the driveway. My current grass is thin, mismatched and weak. I have killed most of the broadleaf weeds with weed and feed, but that really exposed the sparseness of the grass. I can’t look at it anymore. I want something better. So KBG for me. I want a lush lawn that is dark and nice to look at but can also stand up to moderate traffic. I am doing only the front as a “ trial” for a potential full backyard reno in 2021.
The shopping phase is underway. I have RU, hoses, timers, sprinklers, sprayer. Tenacity has been ordered. I need seed, which I have sourced buy not purchased and is a KBG blend (Award, Nuglade, jackpot & Everest Star), sod quality. And I haven’t bought peat moss yet. Those are the thing I envision needing before months end. Just so I have it and don’t have to think about it come G-day.Once my soil test results are in, I will have to determine what amendments are needed and get them down.
I do have some reservations in regards to my phase 7. Does that seem right to starter fertilizer after sprout and pout as opposed to at seed down?
I have a pretty detailed working plan that goes a little like this…
Lawn Reno
- [x] Soil test sent in - 6/5/20
- [x] Soil test ordered - 5/21/20
- [ ] Soil test results rx’d -
Phase 1: Planned start:
- [ ] Glyphosate application #1. (7/18/20)
3oz/1000sqft (2000sqft)
Phase 2: Scalp & Bag #1
- [ ] Scalp & bag 3-5 days after glyphosate application (7/21-23/20)
Phase 3: Glyphosate Application #2
- [ ] 8/1/20 - 2wks after initial application
Phase 4: Scalp & Bag #2
- [ ] 3-5 days after Glyphosate application. (8/4-6/20)
Phase 5: Glyphosate Application #3
- [ ] Spot treat as needed 48 hrs before seed down (8/13-15/20)
Phase 6: Seed Down
- [ ] Seed down 8/15-8/17
- [ ] Apply tenacity 4oz/acre rate
- [ ] Peat down @ 1/2 inch coverage
Phase 7: Starter Fert Application
- [ ] Apply starter fertilizer following completion of “sprout and pout”?
- [ ] Second dose of tenacity?
Thanks for making it this far. Any and all input Is greatly appreciated.
- MorpheusPA
- Posts: 18129
- Joined: March 5th, 2009, 7:32 pm
- Location: Zone 6 (Eastern PA)
- Grass Type: Elite KBG
- Lawn Size: 10000-20000
- Level: Advanced
Re: NGB20’s Fall Renovation 2020
Your soil test results are going to impact your soil additives by quite a bit, so a low soil P might mean starter going at seed-down and a month later, whereas sky-high phosphorus might mean no starter at at any time because you just don't need it. I certainly don't object to organics at seeding (I did this) as they slowly trickle in nitrogen over the entire course of seed sprout and growth through fall without ever overwhelming the new and rather sensitive baby root systems.
So I'd say, for now, keep that entry (it's a good tentative place to put it as seed doesn't really need feeding at seed-down and I never bother with any flower or other ornamental seed I start, including grasses, except for organics or very dilute kelp when doing things indoors), but realize that it might change as time goes on.
Walking the "lawn" (read "slippery somewhat sprouted mud pit" as desired) at Day 30 is a trial in and of itself. You may find that you simply skip it or put it off. This, too, is fine. Even a low-P soil will have some give in the schedule and plants are pretty adaptable.
So I'd say, for now, keep that entry (it's a good tentative place to put it as seed doesn't really need feeding at seed-down and I never bother with any flower or other ornamental seed I start, including grasses, except for organics or very dilute kelp when doing things indoors), but realize that it might change as time goes on.
Walking the "lawn" (read "slippery somewhat sprouted mud pit" as desired) at Day 30 is a trial in and of itself. You may find that you simply skip it or put it off. This, too, is fine. Even a low-P soil will have some give in the schedule and plants are pretty adaptable.
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- Posts: 14
- Joined: June 4th, 2020, 11:12 pm
- Location: Flint, MI
- Grass Type: Kentucky Bluegrass
- Lawn Size: 10000-20000
- Level: Some Experience
Re: NGB20’s Fall Renovation 2020
Thank you for your input MorpheusPA. Much appreciated.
I will keep the starter fertilizer application as tentative for now. It makes perfect sense that I may not even need any depending on the soil test results, but prior to you mentioning it, it never crossed my mind. I will anxiously await the results of the soil test before I buy any starter.
When you say walking the “lawn” at Day 30, what am I looking for? Would the grass be discolored, or would the growth be slowing or stopping? I guess I’m trying to ask, would there be something that jumps out and says fertilizer needed now?
I will keep the starter fertilizer application as tentative for now. It makes perfect sense that I may not even need any depending on the soil test results, but prior to you mentioning it, it never crossed my mind. I will anxiously await the results of the soil test before I buy any starter.
When you say walking the “lawn” at Day 30, what am I looking for? Would the grass be discolored, or would the growth be slowing or stopping? I guess I’m trying to ask, would there be something that jumps out and says fertilizer needed now?
- MorpheusPA
- Posts: 18129
- Joined: March 5th, 2009, 7:32 pm
- Location: Zone 6 (Eastern PA)
- Grass Type: Elite KBG
- Lawn Size: 10000-20000
- Level: Advanced
Re: NGB20’s Fall Renovation 2020
Your magnolia will benefit from balancing the soil. I'd take a photo of my Jane magnolia, but she tends to rip items out of my hands when I approach and devour them, then try to grab me. She's only 4 and hasn't learned manners yet.
But seriously, no, a reno won't harm the tree at all. Killing the lawn--the glyphosate deactivates on contact with the soil, so avoid spraying any magnolia leaves. End of problem there, and don't spray excessive wet runoff into the soil where it could contact magnolia roots before thoroughly contacting soil. That shouldn't be an issue.
The growing seed will receive most of its nutrients from seed storage for the first month, after which you're responsible for supplying the grass with most of what it needs. And most of that will be nitrogen, barring issues with the soil. If that's the case, rebalancing will benefit everything all at once and there will be enough for everything. I'll make recommendations sufficient to see to that.
When you say walking the “lawn” at Day 30, what am I looking for? Would the grass be discolored, or would the growth be slowing or stopping? I guess I’m trying to ask, would there be something that jumps out and says fertilizer needed now?
It's mostly that walking at that point is difficult and leads to slipping and sliding; the date is usually September 15-20, the soil is still rather damp (the bluegrasses are just finishing up sprouting), and the grass doesn't have much root yet. So you'll slide if you take too large a step, which will tear out the young grass.
You won't really notice that it needs anything at that point. It looks...well, kind of like a green fungus 3/4" tall. The fescue, if you use any, will be developing. The rye moving along. The KBG barely started. I used all bluegrass, so at a month mine looked like a failure. It wasn't, it was just very, very thin at that point.
But seriously, no, a reno won't harm the tree at all. Killing the lawn--the glyphosate deactivates on contact with the soil, so avoid spraying any magnolia leaves. End of problem there, and don't spray excessive wet runoff into the soil where it could contact magnolia roots before thoroughly contacting soil. That shouldn't be an issue.
The growing seed will receive most of its nutrients from seed storage for the first month, after which you're responsible for supplying the grass with most of what it needs. And most of that will be nitrogen, barring issues with the soil. If that's the case, rebalancing will benefit everything all at once and there will be enough for everything. I'll make recommendations sufficient to see to that.
When you say walking the “lawn” at Day 30, what am I looking for? Would the grass be discolored, or would the growth be slowing or stopping? I guess I’m trying to ask, would there be something that jumps out and says fertilizer needed now?
It's mostly that walking at that point is difficult and leads to slipping and sliding; the date is usually September 15-20, the soil is still rather damp (the bluegrasses are just finishing up sprouting), and the grass doesn't have much root yet. So you'll slide if you take too large a step, which will tear out the young grass.
You won't really notice that it needs anything at that point. It looks...well, kind of like a green fungus 3/4" tall. The fescue, if you use any, will be developing. The rye moving along. The KBG barely started. I used all bluegrass, so at a month mine looked like a failure. It wasn't, it was just very, very thin at that point.
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- Posts: 14
- Joined: June 4th, 2020, 11:12 pm
- Location: Flint, MI
- Grass Type: Kentucky Bluegrass
- Lawn Size: 10000-20000
- Level: Some Experience
Re: NGB20’s Fall Renovation 2020
Mine hasn’t tried to grab me yet. I am not sure which variety it is. She was here when we moved in. But I am glad to know she will be fine. Thanks for the reassurance.
I am going to use an all bluegrass blend. Picture of the bags mix below. I was looking through your article from 2011 about your Elite KBG fall reno in pictures. It looks like not much going on until about 7-8 weeks. I didn’t see mention of fertilizer or herbicide, but maybe that was on purpose?
Had your schedule allowed you to put seed down a couple weeks later do you think it would have filled in and developed more by week 12, or can I expect my week 12 to look similar to the picture in the article?
Would putting peat moss down right after seed be beneficial in the event that it is warmer than usual when I seed and those following weeks? I see you put some down at week 5, did you use any at seed down?
I am going to use an all bluegrass blend. Picture of the bags mix below. I was looking through your article from 2011 about your Elite KBG fall reno in pictures. It looks like not much going on until about 7-8 weeks. I didn’t see mention of fertilizer or herbicide, but maybe that was on purpose?
Had your schedule allowed you to put seed down a couple weeks later do you think it would have filled in and developed more by week 12, or can I expect my week 12 to look similar to the picture in the article?
Would putting peat moss down right after seed be beneficial in the event that it is warmer than usual when I seed and those following weeks? I see you put some down at week 5, did you use any at seed down?
- MorpheusPA
- Posts: 18129
- Joined: March 5th, 2009, 7:32 pm
- Location: Zone 6 (Eastern PA)
- Grass Type: Elite KBG
- Lawn Size: 10000-20000
- Level: Advanced
Re: NGB20’s Fall Renovation 2020
My reno was...weird. Figure there was a three week delay in everything in mine, and I should have put down peat when I seeded. But all things considered, KBG is a slow grass. It's worth it, it's just...slow at first.
- andy10917
- Posts: 29739
- Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 10:48 pm
- Location: NY (Lower Hudson Valley)
- Grass Type: Emblem KBG (Front); Blueberry KBG Monostand (Back)
- Lawn Size: 1 acre-2 acre
- Level: Advanced
Re: NGB20’s Fall Renovation 2020
Agree! When I put in my "Emblem" lawn, the seedlings were so fragile that the first thing I would do each morning was check it out to make sure that it didn't give up the ghost overnight. 60 days later, it was eating birds and small dogs that dared to walk on it.
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- Posts: 17
- Joined: June 15th, 2020, 4:44 pm
- Location: Mid Michigan
- Grass Type: Northern Mix
- Lawn Size: 1 acre-2 acre
- Level: Some Experience
Re: NGB20’s Fall Renovation 2020
What is everybody’s thoughts on this blend?? I found one at a local sod farm that is identical. Hey NGB20 what’s your set up for irrigation? Do you have in ground?
- andy10917
- Posts: 29739
- Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 10:48 pm
- Location: NY (Lower Hudson Valley)
- Grass Type: Emblem KBG (Front); Blueberry KBG Monostand (Back)
- Lawn Size: 1 acre-2 acre
- Level: Advanced
Re: NGB20’s Fall Renovation 2020
It should do well in your location. Glad to see that it is Sod Quality grasses.What is everybody’s thoughts on this blend??
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- Posts: 17
- Joined: June 15th, 2020, 4:44 pm
- Location: Mid Michigan
- Grass Type: Northern Mix
- Lawn Size: 1 acre-2 acre
- Level: Some Experience
Re: NGB20’s Fall Renovation 2020
Music to my ears Andy. NGB20 you might just have yourself a fellow Michigander doing a front yard Reno with you this year too. Should be fun.
- andy10917
- Posts: 29739
- Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 10:48 pm
- Location: NY (Lower Hudson Valley)
- Grass Type: Emblem KBG (Front); Blueberry KBG Monostand (Back)
- Lawn Size: 1 acre-2 acre
- Level: Advanced
Re: NGB20’s Fall Renovation 2020
I am not a Michigander. As a matter of fact, I am a rabid Ohio State fan. My wife is a Michigander (do you have any idea what my home is like in November when I'm on an annihilation streak?).
Despite that, I will try to be helpful.
Despite that, I will try to be helpful.
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- Posts: 14
- Joined: June 4th, 2020, 11:12 pm
- Location: Flint, MI
- Grass Type: Kentucky Bluegrass
- Lawn Size: 10000-20000
- Level: Some Experience
Re: NGB20’s Fall Renovation 2020
I do not have in ground irrigation. I have two spigots on the house I will be utilizing. Pressure test pending. But the plan is to have 1 sprinkler on one spigot and two on the other. I have my eye on one similar to the Melnor MiniMax oscillating sprinkler. And I have a small ~200 square foot area and was looking at a spot sprinkler. Timers in line as well if I can make it work. I will have my irrigation finalized by months end and will update. We shall see!
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- Posts: 14
- Joined: June 4th, 2020, 11:12 pm
- Location: Flint, MI
- Grass Type: Kentucky Bluegrass
- Lawn Size: 10000-20000
- Level: Some Experience
Re: NGB20’s Fall Renovation 2020
Lol, I can only imagine. But I appreciate you putting our differences aside in the interest of lawn renovations.
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- Posts: 17
- Joined: June 15th, 2020, 4:44 pm
- Location: Mid Michigan
- Grass Type: Northern Mix
- Lawn Size: 1 acre-2 acre
- Level: Some Experience
Re: NGB20’s Fall Renovation 2020
Hey NGB20 have you thought about using that soil moist seed coat?? I see you haven’t mentioned that. I know a lot of guys swear by it on here. I’m thinking I’m going to order some. Every little advantage you can get right? Just an idea for ya.
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- Posts: 14
- Joined: June 4th, 2020, 11:12 pm
- Location: Flint, MI
- Grass Type: Kentucky Bluegrass
- Lawn Size: 10000-20000
- Level: Some Experience
Re: NGB20’s Fall Renovation 2020
I haven’t. Haven’t heard of it to be honest. I’m going to do some reading now. By the name I’m guessing it is used in place of peat moss as a means of keeping seed moist? Or is it used in conjunction with the peat moss?
- andy10917
- Posts: 29739
- Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 10:48 pm
- Location: NY (Lower Hudson Valley)
- Grass Type: Emblem KBG (Front); Blueberry KBG Monostand (Back)
- Lawn Size: 1 acre-2 acre
- Level: Advanced
Re: NGB20’s Fall Renovation 2020
It is generally used WITH peat moss. It is essentially the same stuff that is used for baby diapers. It definitely is worth the cost and effort.
I also use a coarser version when transplanting young plants.
I also use a coarser version when transplanting young plants.
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- Posts: 14
- Joined: June 4th, 2020, 11:12 pm
- Location: Flint, MI
- Grass Type: Kentucky Bluegrass
- Lawn Size: 10000-20000
- Level: Some Experience
Re: NGB20’s Fall Renovation 2020
Understood. Thanks for the recommendation.
On their website, it says it must be incorporated at the root level and not placed on the surface. I have read to not disturb the soil too much after glyphosate and before seed. Does incorporating at the root level mean tilling the soil? Or am I way off?
On their website, it says it must be incorporated at the root level and not placed on the surface. I have read to not disturb the soil too much after glyphosate and before seed. Does incorporating at the root level mean tilling the soil? Or am I way off?
- andy10917
- Posts: 29739
- Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 10:48 pm
- Location: NY (Lower Hudson Valley)
- Grass Type: Emblem KBG (Front); Blueberry KBG Monostand (Back)
- Lawn Size: 1 acre-2 acre
- Level: Advanced
Re: NGB20’s Fall Renovation 2020
You're looking at the wrong product. That's the coarser version (sort of like larger sand particles). The product that was recommended (properly) by FISHMI220 is "SoilMoist Seed Coat", which is a fine powder meant for mixing with grass seeds before they are applied to the soil.
I strongly recommend that you read some of the threads in the Lawn Renovations forum that log successful renovations and lists of items to have on-hand for a renovation - people that read them by and large do better than those that don't.
There is a thread going all the way back to 2011 discussing it, and I think the time since then has added to the belief that it is a very good investment during renovations. Here's the thread: SoilMoist Seed Coat Thread
I strongly recommend that you read some of the threads in the Lawn Renovations forum that log successful renovations and lists of items to have on-hand for a renovation - people that read them by and large do better than those that don't.
There is a thread going all the way back to 2011 discussing it, and I think the time since then has added to the belief that it is a very good investment during renovations. Here's the thread: SoilMoist Seed Coat Thread
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- Posts: 14
- Joined: June 4th, 2020, 11:12 pm
- Location: Flint, MI
- Grass Type: Kentucky Bluegrass
- Lawn Size: 10000-20000
- Level: Some Experience
Re: NGB20’s Fall Renovation 2020
Thanks for those resources. Good reading. I am going to give the SoilMoist seed coat a go.
I plan on filling some uneven spots with topsoil. So I was out today looking at them to get an idea of how much I would need. I found a spot that may be an issue. In the picture are the roots of a crabapple tree. They are showing but not necessarily protruding from the current soil. Would covering them with topsoil and then seeding over do any harm to the tree, or more importantly, my KBG? Any suggestions on how to navigate that area?
I plan on filling some uneven spots with topsoil. So I was out today looking at them to get an idea of how much I would need. I found a spot that may be an issue. In the picture are the roots of a crabapple tree. They are showing but not necessarily protruding from the current soil. Would covering them with topsoil and then seeding over do any harm to the tree, or more importantly, my KBG? Any suggestions on how to navigate that area?
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