Hay field to turf

Discuss how to and whether you should renovate your lawn
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Phloid
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Joined: November 28th, 2009, 4:04 pm
Location: NC mts 2400' elev Zone 6b
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Hay field to turf

Post by Phloid » August 10th, 2010, 10:32 pm

Hello gang. Longtime reader; first post.

I bought a 3.5 ac place in 2007 near Asheville, NC (2,400 ft elev, zone 6B) and wanted to share my adventures in working to improve some turf starting from hay field conditions. My commentary ended up being much lengthier than I expected. Hopefully you find it worthwhile.

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Move in month, May 2007. North bottomland (has a stream) looking south up to my house. Had just let my cattle farmer neighbor hay my field, a typical practice here. Low yield because we were in a drought. The previous owner kept parts of field mowed with a riding lawn mower and occasionally let another neighbor bush-hog the rest. (She and the cattle farmer didn't get along.) Prior to her (25+ yrs ago) the field was a hay field/pasture. A pasture type seed mix has obviously been used in the past but now there a broad diversity of natives and exotics. I have a botany degree and am pretty adept at my broadleafs but not as much on grasses. They just aren't as much "fun" to sort out. Many blend into this mixed crowd so well that I'm still discovering. Would be great to get a real grass person here.

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The field in Aug 2007. The bottom went through a very pretty wildflower meadow phase. I'll be playing around with this - likely post about that sooner or later.

Was spending money like crazy so compromised and bought one riding mower, a 22HP John Deere LA120, to do both main yard and field, a compromise that I will get past eventually. Spring/summer 2007 - after the haying I started mowing some pathways and got my neighbor to bush-hog the rest. That fall I decided to start mowing more of the field regularly. Only then did really hit me how much it sucked that the JD would only raise to 4 inches. Even JD's garden class tractor's are limited to 4. That's insane for mowers of that class! All "Huskies" and some other makes provide a more sensible 6". Next time .... Hint, hint JD! As a result, I'm mowing sections of the field lower and more frequently than I want. Sub-compact tractor and mower attachment on the want list. My remaining "roughs" aren't worthwhile for the neighbor to bale so he just bush-hogs them twice a year.

After moving in and giving my grass more than a casual glance I realized the yard and sections of the field had interspersions of KBG ranging from very noticeable to there if you looked for it. Moved here from the Raleigh/Durham area of the state where KBG is not (yet) a serious contender. Was excited to see that KBG could hang here in an old hay field and a poorly maintained lawn. No idea what kind(s) - mostly common I guess.

Soils have been USDA surveyed. My upslope site soils are mapped as Tate series. Excerpted descript for Tate: "sloping, very deep, well drained soils ... on high stream terraces, on benches, on fans, and in coves. They formed in colluvium and alluvium weathered from granite, gneiss, and schist. They have a loamy surface layer and subsoil. Permeability is moderate and shrink-swell potential is low. Seasonal high water table is below 6.0 feet. The potential for pesticide loss from leaching is moderate. The potential for pesticide loss from runoff is moderate. Tate soils are in hydrologic group B."

Got state lab soil tests done the first year. Here are my averaging of the results for "hill" samples taken in agronomic fashion - basically meaning larger sample areas and more cores/sample. OK, I was lazy. There wasn't significant variation in the results so I felt comfortable using the averaged numbers for initial amending. I've done some subsequent testing of ornamental beds and food plant areas but not field and lawn. Will do this fall.

Humic Matter % 0.57, W/V 0.92, CEC 8.8 Base Sat % 80, Ac 1.8, pH 5.7, P-I 9 K-82, Ca% 54, Mg% 21, Mn-I 165, Zn-I 136, Zn-AI 13, Cu-I 232, S-I 36.
Recommendations:
Fescue Lawn: Lime 40#/M (1000 sq ft), P2O5 2#/M, K2O 0#/M (that's what it said! Of course I would be using fert with K anyway.) Minors - none
Clover/Grass: Lime 60#/M, P2O5 3.3#/M, K2O 1.9#/M, Minors - none

A comparison of samples taken near the house are of interest.
Sample in an turf area I don't think has received lime anytime lately, probably never:
Humic Matter % 0.51, W/V 0.95, CEC 9.4 Base Sat % 79, Ac 2.0, pH 5.8, P-I 34 K-61, Ca% 62, Mg% 14, Mn-I 100, Zn-I 369, Zn-AI 369, Cu-I 86, S-I 37. Recommendations for crop Flower Bed: 65" lime/M, 2#P/M, 0#K/M.
Sample in an flower bed just outside the kitchen back door:
Humic Matter % 0.76, W/V 0.87, CEC 23.8 Base Sat % 97, Ac 0.8, pH 6.7, P-I 144 K-223, Ca% 81, Mg% 10, Mn-I 459, Zn-I 908, Zn-AI 908, Cu-I 256, S-I 70. Recommendations for crop Flower Bed: 0 lime, 0 P, 0 K.
The second shows movement towards greater "fertility" on all accounts. Addition of lime is indicated but the Ca/Mg ratio is interesting. The standard lime used around here is dolomitic but that ratio doesn't support a case for dolomite. Who knows? The house is almost 50 years old so a multitude of things could have gotten in the soil. The S being doubled - might gypsum have been used? The exceedingly high minors didn't raise any lab concerns. Any who .... the thing of most note was how much the CEC of a Tate soil can improve with some lime and a little organic matter.

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This photo shows the barn area as it looked on move-in day. She had just moved out the day before so you can see what her mowing standards were like. After mowing awhile it got easier to pick out occurrences of KBG. Dryness and weed problems stopped me from mowing low to favor the KBG over the coarse stuff. Put down lime, 0-44-0 and likely small amounts of a turf fertilizer. Some more fert in the fall - again very little because the drought was in Severe category by now. Also put down some common KBG seed. Might have toyed with some watering but nothing of importance.

In the interest of full disclosure, by the end of 2007 I had incrementally probably doubled the lime rate recommended by the test. Coming from a region of heavy clay, (i.e.) REAL clay, if you had a soil with clay close to surface and typical runoff, you could get away with a habit of being slap happy with the lime. The risk was mostly just wasting lime, not over-liming. It's a habit I need to stop here though because I don't have REAL clay anymore, clay-loam is the most clay-like soil I have. Also readily admit that I've not applied organic matter but that would help tremendously. It's on the "to do" list but hasn't made it to "next" point.

2008: Drought all winter - Spring no N put down. Unrelenting drought passed Extreme to become an historical Exceptional class. I was tearing my hair out trying to keep new things alive. Weeds and grass seedheads were about the only reason you ever needed to mow. Fall brought some rain enough to try some light fertilizing, putting down some common KBG seed and watering. The bone dry ground sucked up more water than I was willing to put out so I stopped trying.

Spring 09 it started raining A LOT and 2009 became the year with the highest amount of rain on record. Go figure! Early on I was doing my 3-3.5 inches around the barn and not really thinking about the KBG. Started noticing that parts of the area were starting to look really nicer. Looked more closely and saw nice KBG spreading. And very likely seed put down last year was germinating to supplement the KBG already present. I started dropping the deck. Going down the turf didn't look as nice because of the gapping of the coarser fescue and weeds but it was getting the faster KBG spread I wanted. Started doing 1.5" just to see what would happen. The KBG was OK but didn't like that as much as 2-2.5 (it's common remember). But the KY-31, orchardgrass and other coarse fellows were not happy at all and that was what I was after. With all that rain I got out 3# of N that spring I guess. I was also expanding the extra liming, fertilizing, low mowing and weed control further out from the barn area wherever I saw any KBG. Weed control all season was post-emergents, glyphosate spotting and manual work. Never got around to using a preM, partly because I've no personal experience with them on turf. I know they would lessen my total chemical usage and time spent so I need to start using them some. Rain leveled off mid-summer and I pulled the deck up but then back down to 2" in late Aug because it started raining almost every day. We got 13" of rain in Sept!! In October things got back more to normal. Applied about 3.5# of N that fall. By fall's end I was amazed and pleased at how much the KBG was displacing other grasses.

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Taken three days ago. Wish I'd been taken good photos all along. There is something about the barn area and ridgeline. The KBG is filling out nicer and competing there better than anywhere on my property. The soil gets hard when dry but must be chocked full of pore space. A physical properties analysis would be nice. I won't be fiddling with the lime this fall until the soil is tested, promise. Note the extension of higher density turf out along the ridge and also note that to the downsides density drops off rather quickly. More about that later. 2010 has been a normal rain year and I've not tried to push as radically as I did in 2009. I still pushed in the spring and if the rain is good I'll push hard this fall. Will do some plugging and spot seeding in large bare spots. In the best performing spots there is only incidental fescue that you can easily pull up by the roots so it must be under stress. I am contemplating a Certainty application this fall. Do you think fall is as good a time as spring for that? Orchardgrass is germinating here and there but I think some manual work will take of that. FWIW: it's a good chance the "common" seed I bought was VNS.

Here are some closeups all taken a few days ago. Since I couldn't chronologically compare the same area I took shots starting a ways out from the barn working in.
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Below: Then there are these weed & chemical warfare zone areas. Not all is roses. This one has a lot of a grass that sorta lookes like a bluish-green fescue but I never got around to figuring it out until this summer. I have the curse of quackgrass. This may be a nuke site any day now. Quackgrass camouflages really well in mixed turf so I really don't know how much of it I have elsewhere. I'm afraid to know. Glad to see that Certainty now has a label for quackgrass in KBG.
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Below: Shot to show the downside of the ridge. The sward is coarser, more droughty and weedy. Rocks close to surface in a few spots. Wish I had a good pre-drought photo, would like to see how much of a hit the drought had on less tolerant grasses. Fescue is scare enough and if there is any KBG midslope area it is hiding really well. Closer to the ridge I have seeded in common so parts I will never know if it was there before or not. I refer you back to the photo above to note where the KBG performance drops compared to the knoll and ridge even though some areas got just as much attention. Most of the mid-slope has gotten much less lime and fertilizer and no KBG seed so far.
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A closeup of the midslope turf. Coarse stuff like Paspalum spp. and plantains really stand out in the area. The fine area is creeping red fescue.
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This photo shows bigger colony areas of creeping red. I'm pondering about their occurrence patterns in the field and their prospects for the future. Looking at them now you first think it must be quite competitive in full sun and the poorest soils. However, back when the field was mowed infrequently the creeping red would have gotten a lot more shade. I'm wondering if these patches are going to start giving way now that they get full sun all the time. I need to start serial photos but I think I'm seeing shrinkage of many patches and invasion by other plants. Of course, new amendments and chemical usage will have effects as well.
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For the time being I don't see myself nuking the common KBG where it is doing well just to put in a new cultivar. Eventually some of it will be part of the main lawn and I will nuke/reseed. Meanwhile I want to work towards improved turf on the slope areas shown in the photos and want to try and see how much of it I can get into pure and/or KBG dominant turf. Tall fescue at last resort. I'm pretty much convinced, much thanks to this site, of the wisdom of minimum soil disturbance approaches. Very open to cover cropping. Time/$/water friendly approaches are preferred. Studying my options and welcome ideas. I'd prefer to keep main pathways in walkable mowed cover. White clover would seem to work except wouldn't that be creating a nasty seed-bank problem? Other options?

Although I have spent a long while researching KBG cultivars this year including a lot of NTEP study (I did a monster spreadsheet) my first-hand familiarity with KBG cultivars is limited to a few really old ones. I seeded a small spot near the house with Baron, lol, nasty coarse stuff! This fall I hope to make it to the Univ of TN or NCSU trial plots for viewing. Very much interested to hear what cultivars some of you suggest for my slope area. (Might I get more input on the cultivars selection question with a short selection specific OP in the Cool Season Turf section?)

Target mowing range is 2.5-3.5", irrigation only for establishment and stand loss prevention, no fungicides/pesticides, 2-4#N/yr.. The color of the turf is important. For turf, I think middle of the road rich greens, not light greens nor very dark greens would look best in my landscape setting. The photo below shows some Manhattan V perennial rye I used as an experiment. If all the turf was as dark as the rye I think it would just look out of character. Concerned that many of the darker KBG cultivars might strike me the same way. Image

I need to do some photo work to help decision making on the color thing.

Thanks for any input!
Shaub

Since my starter photo was my field from below in 2007, here it is a few days ago.
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Last edited by Phloid on August 11th, 2010, 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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andy10917
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Re: Hay field to turf

Post by andy10917 » August 10th, 2010, 10:45 pm

Wow. Just wow.

That is one enormous piece of work. And it is really nice. I'm bookmarking this posting to read a couple of more times - there is a ton of lessons-learned in this one.

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MorpheusPA
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Re: Hay field to turf

Post by MorpheusPA » August 10th, 2010, 11:36 pm

+1 Andy; I think I absorbed about half of that at first read-through!

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Phloid
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Re: Hay field to turf

Post by Phloid » August 10th, 2010, 11:55 pm

Thanks Andy
for every ton I learned, 1/2 was learning about what else I needed to learn

aren't forums great!

GaryCinChicago
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Re: Hay field to turf

Post by GaryCinChicago » August 11th, 2010, 12:22 am

The avatar is very fitting!

Kicking around on a piece of ground in your home town
Tired of lying in the sunshine staying home to watch the rain :rotfl: :yahoo: :D


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clay&crabgrass
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Re: Hay field to turf

Post by clay&crabgrass » August 11th, 2010, 9:13 am

http://www.antiquetractors.com/content/yph5368.htm
http://www.bushhog.com/product-line/fin ... owers.html

oh goodie, give my 3.5 acre fantasy a tuneup. where's the garden? need garden pictures.

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Phloid
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Re: Hay field to turf

Post by Phloid » August 11th, 2010, 10:31 pm

you got it Gary
and be careful with those hedge shears Eugene

clay&crabgrass;
lol, not sure that Ferguson is what I have in mind but the price tag is probably a lot nicer
pieces of garden scattered over the place, all works in progress. anything particular of interest?
something from the grab bag

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Last edited by Phloid on August 12th, 2010, 12:24 am, edited 2 times in total.

John_in_SC
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Re: Hay field to turf

Post by John_in_SC » August 11th, 2010, 11:32 pm

C&C is specifically looking for Daikon Radishes and Millet ;)

Thanks

John

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Phloid
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Re: Hay field to turf

Post by Phloid » August 12th, 2010, 11:11 pm

I read about the daikons somewhere on here. I know they are fall croppers. they're on the list of possible cover crops for phasing my west slope towards turf. so maybe pics later :)

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clay&crabgrass
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Re: Hay field to turf

Post by clay&crabgrass » August 13th, 2010, 7:00 am

daikons? got a bag of seed already to plant. the theory is that the radish will aerate the soil, add OM and possibly disturb the lives of some moles. I got the seed thru Fedco. here's a link to a radish site with pictures-- http://www.ampacseed.com/groundhog.htm

"phasing my west slope towards turf" ?? love to mow? I can see building the soil with a series of cover crops, then I think I'd go in the direction of the wildflower meadow. less mowing, more color, more wildlife. (hehehehe, my 3.5 acre fantasy).

glad to see the gardens are producing, keep you well fed.

(since what I'd call an old tractor has become a collectable antique, they aren't cheap anymore. find one in good shape, keep in good shape, always break even or make money on it. tons of equipment for them. finishing deck does a nice mowing job and mulches leaves, etc. into dust. )

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Dchall_San_Antonio
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Re: Hay field to turf

Post by Dchall_San_Antonio » August 14th, 2010, 2:39 pm

Phloid, what is your objective with this property? Does it need to be a perfect monostand or just green? If just green was the objective, I'd trade out the JD mower for one you can adjust higher. Mow it high during the cool months and don't mow at all in the summer or during droughts. I'd probably go with a real tractor with a PTO and pull behind mower if you can find one that goes to 6+ inches. Dutch white clover is good as long as you don't care about it spreading. It will fertilize for you. It also attracts bees, if that is a consideration. Personally I think clumps of clover would add interest to an otherwise monotonous stand of uniformity.

Would you consider running a cow and maybe a few goats over it full time? I realize that it becomes a much different project but for some people, once they consider livestock, it opens new opportunities for them. I could give you some ideas that could make it relatively easy.

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Phloid
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Re: Hay field to turf

Post by Phloid » August 16th, 2010, 2:15 am

c&c:
possibly disturb the lives of some moles.
my moles are laughing so hard I can hear them. If radishes will add OM, then the moles say bring them on. More OM means more earthworms. But that won't stop me from increasing OM. So trap the moles? I stopped trying to trap them in the open areas. 2 Victor traps have caught one mole in 3 yrs. It is "whack a mole" to the extreme. I am practicing the Zen of life with moles (along with life with Japanese beetles). Don't want a cat or dog solution.

Will look into the radish thing - still have a window for planting. Want to experiment w/ minimal soil disturbance - the current ground is quite hard so we'll see just how tough these radish fellows are. I'll also do some turnips. With much finer seed I think the turnips will take much better. The Fedco downloadable seed catalog is a bit humorous - the index entry for "Cover crops and supplies" refers you to pages 107-129. The catalog ends on page 98. luckily they have a searchable online catalog.
"phasing my west slope towards turf" ?? love to mow? I can see building the soil with a series of cover crops, then I think I'd go in the direction of the wildflower meadow. less mowing, more color, more wildlife. (hehehehe, my 3.5 acre fantasy).
Perhaps I mislead: The west slope turf will share space w/ a vineyard (seen in the OP photos), peach trees and a large area of undecided purpose. I have the wildlflowers thingy going on (photos below) but it will have to share space with mowed turf if for no other reason than I like "more wildlife" too - like running around naked under a full moon without getting chiggers. No doubt that is part of many people's fantasies as well. Just kidding (or am I?). ;)

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David,
what is your objective with this property? Does it need to be a perfect monostand or just green?
Objective is to have fun, create beauty, get exercise and provide some good things to eat. Would you like a fresh raspberry smoothie? They are in season. Neither a perfect monostand nor just green will do. Objectives may change - I'm a gardener who does not like being bound to a master plan. I had enough of that when I was a municipal horticulturist. Here I can improvise as I go. I enjoy working with herbaceous materials (e.g. perennial "flower beds") because you can change looks relatively easy and I also enjoy the way they show time of year change much faster than woodies. I will keep much of the field in herbaceous material for that reason. But I want to have significant areas of turf because my eye does not stop at my property line. It likes the way grass marries my field to the surroundings, as you can see from the photos below. As I get older and less able to maintain it all, I will put more to trees and, yes c&c, more wildflowers.
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Monostands are impractical but the moment I saw Poa pratensis holding its own in my yard and field, some monostand areas of it became part of my 3.5 acre fantasy, correction, 3.5 acre objectives. Monostand anything turf was never much of a thing with me before so I was rather surprised with myself. (I don't play golf if anyone was wondering but a bocce ball area would be nice.) I know that KBG dominant turf is more practical for the field so monostands will be reserved just for choice areas. (Would aroundtheyard.com even exist if there weren't crazed fantasies of having monostands?) I have LOTS of white clover and always will whether I want to or not. Does a grassy field exist in the eastern half of the US that doesn't have white clover? I'm letting it form circles around my young fruit trees. As I said, it would be great as a temporary soil building path, it's aggressive vegetative growth being a plus, except for the fact of its thug seeding problem. Hell, not even methyl bromide fumigation can eradicate a white clover seedbank. I'm looking for suggestions for a creeping, soil building, pathway sort of fellow that is better at parting ways after serving its phasing purpose. BTW - your mentioned bees. I was very concerned when I saw how scarce honey bees are here but have learned that the native bees do an excellent job of pollinating my fruit trees. Better actually, they'll work in colder weather. I'm fine buying my honey so the secret life of bees will remain just a movie to me. You asked if I am interested in keeping livestock. Not really; the responsibilities outweigh the opportunities.

A 3-point hitch 18-20ish HP compact tractor is definitely on the list (front-end loader, "bush-hog" mower and groom mower, etc). It will happen eventually but other expenditures have priority right now. The 4" limitation of my John Deere rider was an oversight during the purchasing process. Next riding mower buy in that class will have 6". I am taxing the JD but that's ok.- it suffices for now.

How do you like this white clover I found back home this summer? The focus is bad. I've got to better protect it from the rabbits. Peeing on it didn't work. They must REALLY like the unusual marking.
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