Renovators: Sprout and Pout

Discuss how to and whether you should renovate your lawn
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simpson
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Re: Renovators: Sprout and Pout

Post by simpson » October 21st, 2012, 10:06 am

andy10917 wrote:and this is a problem with low P and K in a very-high pH soil with a new lawn.
This is where I can not continue the discussion. It was fun trying to keep up with you and Gary on this topic. But now you are way over my head.

But based off that picture that blizzisu posted it looks pretty clear to me that lawn is starving and needs SOMETHING. From the dark green dog spots I would say that something is nitrogen.

Blizzisu how about you dig up two spots one in the dog spots and one right next to it and compare the root growth.

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andy10917
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Re: Renovators: Sprout and Pout

Post by andy10917 » October 21st, 2012, 10:28 am

Here is an article on simple Nitrogen applications:

http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/arch ... tiliz.html

Here are a couple of highlights:
Nitrogen Suppresses Roots. Deterioration of roots is another undesirable response to excessive rates of nitrogen. At high rates of nitrogen, root diameter generally increases, but root number and root elongation decrease. The net result is a decrease in root weight.
Cold Tolerance. Lush, rapid growth that generally follows the application of soluble nitrogen fertilizers usually causes a decrease in cold tolerance in grasses. Again, much of the work on cold tolerance has been conducted on cool season grasses. Kentucky bluegrass and bentgrass withstand cold temperatures better at low levels of nitrogen fertilizers.
Not exactly a resounding support of the "growth is growth" theory, is it? It's very important that the OVERALL health of the grass plants be encouraged, and NOT just the visible symptoms of a problem. The simplistic chasing of symptoms instead of solving problems is a recipe for trouble.

Since Gary is in the "do I really need to repeat myself" mode, I'll repeat Rule #1 of good lawn care:

BE PATIENT.

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Re: Renovators: Sprout and Pout

Post by blizzisu » October 21st, 2012, 10:32 am

Here are the two samples. It was funny that I found an earthworm beneath both of them :) Roots go down to about 3 inches in both.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Y ... directlink

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Re: Renovators: Sprout and Pout

Post by simpson » October 21st, 2012, 11:08 am

Again I can not comment on the low p and k that Andy is talking about. But from your pictures and both of those core samples having the same root growth I would start using some extra nitrogen.

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Re: Renovators: Sprout and Pout

Post by andy10917 » October 21st, 2012, 11:16 am

I can't imagine how this evidence leads to that conclusion. It is clear that the "growth is growth" theory isn't supported by the cores - where is the extra root growth from the Nitrogen in the urine spots? Nowhere. So the cold tolerance will go down, root growth will go down, additional top growth will not be supported by the same amount of roots, but you want to race ahead with top growth? 2 lbs of N did nothing, so double-down and make it 3 lbs? I don't get it...


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Re: Renovators: Sprout and Pout

Post by simpson » October 21st, 2012, 11:31 am

I am suggesting that using 0.25 lbs of nitrogen weekly would not be a bad idea. The small amounts will stay in the upper level for the new lawn to use. Its the same amount of nitrogen that would be used monthly during the fall anyway.

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Re: Renovators: Sprout and Pout

Post by MorpheusPA » October 21st, 2012, 12:29 pm

I'm definitely seeing something in those photos, but I don't think it's a nitrogen shortage. It looks more like the urine, where the final reaction is acidic, released something else (the N, I'm sure, helped a bit, though).

As to what that is, I'm not sure...but I have a feeling it's a mix of P and iron. Neither's something you raise fast, and you don't want to, but it does indicate that staying the course here is wisest.

If you're so motivated to drop some Milorganite, I wouldn't object. It'll fast-release a little iron that has about five seconds to be absorbed before your alkaline soil binds it up in chains.

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andy10917
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Re: Renovators: Sprout and Pout

Post by andy10917 » October 21st, 2012, 12:39 pm

Personally, I think two tons of Calcium at pH 8.2 is binding the Phosphorus, which is the weakest link in the chain. I didn't want to turn this into Soil Chemistry 301 though...

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Re: Renovators: Sprout and Pout

Post by simpson » October 21st, 2012, 1:31 pm

MorpheusPA wrote: If you're so motivated to drop some Milorganite, I wouldn't object. It'll fast-release a little iron that has about five seconds to be absorbed before your alkaline soil binds it up in chains.
But if the iron is bound up so fast what is going to give the lawn a dark green color? The nitrogen in the milorganite? It's OK to drop tons and tons of milorganite on a new Reno because its organic? It still has water soluble nitrogen in it. So what is really making the new lawn look good? The organics, nitrogen, or iron?

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Re: Renovators: Sprout and Pout

Post by GeorgiaDad » October 21st, 2012, 1:40 pm

Here's some good reading.
http://www.noble.org/ag/soils/roleofpotassium/
http://www.noble.org/ag/soils/phosphorusbehavior/#

I don't think he is following the recommendation given with the soil test. Starter not urea should be going down. He is low on P and K. That's the root of the problem.

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Re: Renovators: Sprout and Pout

Post by sc4dr » October 21st, 2012, 4:03 pm

+1 G-Dad. Been reading through this thread, and if I were blizz, I would stay the course. No need for any knee jerk decisions. No offense simpson, but in blizz's case, I don't think he has a nitrogen problem.

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Re: Renovators: Sprout and Pout

Post by blizzisu » October 21st, 2012, 4:18 pm

GeorgiaDad wrote:Here's some good reading.
http://www.noble.org/ag/soils/roleofpotassium/
http://www.noble.org/ag/soils/phosphorusbehavior/#

I don't think he is following the recommendation given with the soil test. Starter not urea should be going down. He is low on P and K. That's the root of the problem.
Reccomendations have been followed. It's just going to be a marathon length up hill battle in this soil. It'll still be the best lawn in the neighborhood come spring :)

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Re: Renovators: Sprout and Pout

Post by sc4dr » October 21st, 2012, 8:14 pm

I have no doubts blizz!

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Re: Renovators: Sprout and Pout

Post by MorpheusPA » October 21st, 2012, 11:21 pm

It does take ages. A pH of 8.2 isn't a sweet spot for pretty much any resource availability, so it's a constant struggle.

You might have better effects from trickling in the starter instead of loading it once a month. Weekly or every other week apps at 1/4 or 1/2 bag rate may do better than a monthly drop.

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Re: Renovators: Sprout and Pout

Post by bulldog77 » October 25th, 2012, 8:32 pm

Just wondering if it would be better for me to do some weekly apps of starter vs urea for the next 2-3 weeks based on my soil test? I have both on hand and have used urea the past several weeks at .25/k. Here is copy of my soil test which was low in P and K. Thanks!!!
http://aroundtheyard.com/soil/new-soil- ... t8086.html

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Re: Renovators: Sprout and Pout

Post by mattya » October 26th, 2012, 11:25 am

bulldog77 wrote:Just wondering if it would be better for me to do some weekly apps of starter vs urea for the next 2-3 weeks based on my soil test? I have both on hand and have used urea the past several weeks at .25/k. Here is copy of my soil test which was low in P and K. Thanks!!!
http://aroundtheyard.com/soil/new-soil- ... t8086.html
When did you last drop starter and at what rate?
andy10917 wrote:Personally, I think two tons of Calcium at pH 8.2 is binding the Phosphorus, which is the weakest link in the chain. I didn't want to turn this into Soil Chemistry 301 though...
Please do.

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Re: Renovators: Sprout and Pout

Post by bulldog77 » October 26th, 2012, 12:18 pm

I last dropped the starter at seeding time ( Aug 18) at. 50/k (estimated unfortunately as i didnt weigh it, but im fairly certain it should be close to that...)

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Re: Renovators: Sprout and Pout

Post by bernstem » October 26th, 2012, 1:30 pm

pH is preventing availability of P. That is likely the bottleneck in grass growth for Bliz. Since we can't change pH, the only option is to increase the Phos levels to the point that it becomes available despite being mostly bound up.

Looking at the application schedule that Bliz posted, he looks to be way short of P and K and adequate on Nitrogen (especially since the last two synthetic drops). His original soil plan should have him at 5+ lbs/k of Phos and 4+ lbs/k of Potassium applied by now (pH=8.2, P=50lbs/A, K=100lbs/A (1% base sat) in June). He has put down 2.5 of P and 0.9 of K. That deficit needs to be made up.

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Re: Renovators: Sprout and Pout

Post by blizzisu » October 26th, 2012, 1:55 pm

I put starter down at 1/4 rate again last Friday and will do the same again tonight and each week until soil temps drop too low.

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Re: Renovators: Sprout and Pout

Post by GeorgiaDad » October 27th, 2012, 9:21 am

bernstem wrote:pH is preventing availability of P. That is likely the bottleneck in grass growth for Bliz. Since we can't change pH, the only option is to increase the Phos levels to the point that it becomes available despite being mostly bound up.

Looking at the application schedule that Bliz posted, he looks to be way short of P and K and adequate on Nitrogen (especially since the last two synthetic drops). His original soil plan should have him at 5+ lbs/k of Phos and 4+ lbs/k of Potassium applied by now (pH=8.2, P=50lbs/A, K=100lbs/A (1% base sat) in June). He has put down 2.5 of P and 0.9 of K. That deficit needs to be made up.
Thanks Bernstem. That's what I was trying to say. You just said it better. :good:

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