Recommendations trees/mulch with new lawn in PA.

[dealspec]

Hi,
I'm replacing an area with trees and wood chip mulch with a lawn. These were the steps I was going to take:
-grind all the stumps in the area.
-cover the wood chip mulched area with top soil
-seed area and water daily until lawn grows

I had a few questions:
-Do I need to till the area before I put top soil? I was thinking that the wood chips would decompose so I didn't have to. Am I wrong? Should I till the soil, then put the top soil on top?
-Will I need anything other than seed and water?
-Any recommendations for type of grass? I am in the Philadelphia, PA area. I am looking for low maintenance and slow growing. I really liked zoysia until I found out it turns yellow so that's out of the running.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions,
dealspec

UPDATE 4/16/2010
Per suggestions, I will be tilling the soil and getting a soil test, fertilize as needed and grow from seed only. I still need suggestions on grass to grow for the Philadelphia, PA area. Should I start a new thread in the cool season grass forum?

These are the properties I'm looking for in a grass
1-IMPORTANT Grows slowly so I don't have to mow often
2-IMPORTANT Don't need to fertilize often or ever
2-IMPORTANT Grows close together so I don't have to pull weeds
3-PREFER Doesn't need water often (though I could probably live with watering the lawn, I could just set up a sprinkler system with a timer)
4-PREFER Will not cut feet if walked on barefoot

I don't really care much about color as long as it's green.

[MorpheusPA]

Howdy sort-of-neighbor! I'm just north of you in the Lehigh Valley!

* Most will tell you not to till, and they're right. Most of the time. Here...wood chips are SO slow to break down and suck up SO much nitrogen doing it that I'd either collect and get rid of them, or...well, I'd break down and till it, realizing that I'm destroying a lot of the soil structure. At least it'd distribute the wood throughout the soil, not all in one layer.

* If (huge if) your soil is optimal, you won't need anything but seed and water. April isn't the optimal time to be doing this. It's too close to summer already, but your next option is to wait until Labor Day.

Edit: I glossed over that too much. A soil test would be the only thing that can tell you whether you need to adjust your soils at all for grass growth. Under trees, the pH could very well be off. You could be low on phosphorus (in which case using starter fertilizer would be a good idea). We just don't know without a formal lab test (about $13 for test C through U Mass...http://www.umass.edu/plsoils/soiltest/)

* I'm not a wide-spectrum expert on grasses, but I can tell you that my favored one, Kentucky Bluegrass, is right out. It's slow to establish, requires some coddling when immature, and rather high maintenance. I can guess what others will say--Rye. Perennial rye is a great lawn, much lower maintenance (no lawn is really that low-maintenance around here), survives our winters well and looks great doing it, and does well over summer as well. Or TTTF (Turf Type Tall Fescue).

But I'll let other people with experience there suggest what kinds, and what will fit the slower-growing bill (no grass, even the dwarf elite Kentucky Bluegrasses, are all that slow-growing, really...)

Zoysia...just say no. It's straw well into May (and turns back to straw at first frost in October) and can suffer some winter kill when we get a colder than average winter without snow. It's also not low maintenance, not in our area, at least, and requires at least yearly heavy dethatching. It's a borderline grass in Zone 6, our zone.

[Dchall_San_Antonio]

I agree the wood chips from stump grinding will be a problem. If you left them and put soil over top, you would have yellow grass there for the next few years as the wood decomposes. If you have a shop vac you can remove them reasonably easily. Don't worry about sucking up some soil, because you're coming in with topsoil there anyway.

Another issue will be getting the new topsoil mounded up right so that when it settles it is level with your surrounding soil profile. About all you can do is guess at that. Settling takes 3 years. It is probably better to guess low so you can add more soil in 2012 after this load is finally settled. The settling issue is the one that would steer you away from tilling the entire area. If you lawn is not already lumpy and bumpy, it would be if you tilled it. Morph's suggestion about tilling to spread the wood chips around is an alternative to sucking the chips up with the shop vac. If you don't want to suck them up and don't want yellow spots everywhere there was a stump, then tilling would even out the yellowness so it would be less noticeable.

What does "low maintenance" mean to you? Does that mean mowing and watering once a week and fertilizing three times a year?

[dealspec]

Thanks for all the suggestions so far. There are too many wood chips to suck up with a shop vac. There was practically a forest in my front yard before I took them down and there also was a whole lot of wood chip mulch under the trees. Just to be safe and per your suggestions, I think I will till the soil before I put the top soil in.

When I say low maintenance, I mean mowing, fertilizing, and watering as little as possible (though I probably don't mind watering if I had to compromise). Zoysia's characteristics seemed ideal until I found out it turns to yellow half the year.

Few other questions:
-Should I test the soil before or after I put in the top soil?
-I'm actually leaning toward TTTF (Turf Type Tall Fescue), but am intrigued by Hard Fescue (particularly this one http://www.outsidepride.com/seed/grass- ... -seed.html ). Any comments on either of these? What are the downsides? Is it really uncomfortable to walk on? I do like the look of Kentucky Bluegrass, but I'm trying to limit my yardwork.

[bpgreen]

"When I say low maintenance, I mean mowing, fertilizing, and watering as little as possible"

Can you refine that definition? If your main goal is to mow, fertilize and water as little as possible, you could plant Dutch white clover and you'd never have to mow or fertilize and you'd only need to water if you hit drought conditions.

I've been planting grasses that only need to be mowed and watered about 2x a month (in the desert) and never need to be fertilized. The ones I'm using wouldn't survive in PA, but there are probably grasses that are native to your area that would be similar.

There are tradeoffs, of course. Neither of these alternatives look quite the same as a traditional lawn. Mine comes close, but it is definitely a different shade of green.

[dealspec]

Actually googled that dutch white clover and it sounds perfect for a bare part of rear backyard. However, the area I'm looking to plant is the very front of my house and I don't think my neighbors will like a clover front yard. If I would have to refine my definition of low maintenance is something that grows slow and I wouldn't have to mow often. The more research I do, the more it seems like it's tough to get the perfect grass. This is the properties I would like to order of preference.

1-IMPORTANT Grows slowly so I don't have to mow often
2-IMPORTANT Don't need to fertilize often or ever
2-IMPORTANT Grows close together so I don't have to pull weeds
3-PREFER Doesn't need water often (though I could probably live with watering the lawn, I could just set up a sprinkler system with a timer)
4-PREFER Will not cut feet if walked on barefoot

I don't really care much about color as long as it's green.

Thanks so much, I've learned alot from your responses and reading other threads in this forum. Would Hard Fescue grow in Philly? Would it cut your feet if you walk on it barefoot?

[clay&crabgrass]

"I don't think my neighbors will like a clover front yard."

MuHahahahahahaha! your neighbors are your enemies, plant whatever you want, life will go on.

if all you want is green, try this-- http://www.seedland.com/mm5/merchant.mv ... -CRABGRASS

that'll get the neighbors all cranked up

[MorpheusPA]

1-IMPORTANT Grows slowly so I don't have to mow often
2-IMPORTANT Don't need to fertilize often or ever
2-IMPORTANT Grows close together so I don't have to pull weeds
3-PREFER Doesn't need water often (though I could probably live with watering the lawn, I could just set up a sprinkler system with a timer)
4-PREFER Will not cut feet if walked on barefoot

A slight disconnect, but we might be able to solve it.

Fescues and ryes are both nice to the feet, don't require much water (once established; you gotta be on the water like white on rice during establishment), and if planted with Dutch white clover (about 10% by weight in the seed) won't require much, if any, fertilizer.

They're not extremely slow growers, but not being fertilized except by the Dutch white clover means that they won't grow that quickly.

Another option might be one of the native grasses. Regrettably, most of them aren't compatible with lawns; they dislike being that short. However, somebody with better knowledge on that may be able to scare one up that will work in PA.

[GaryCinChicago]

1-IMPORTANT Grows slowly so I don't have to mow often
2-IMPORTANT Don't need to fertilize often or ever
2-IMPORTANT Grows close together so I don't have to pull weeds
3-PREFER Doesn't need water often (though I could probably live with watering the lawn, I could just set up a sprinkler system with a timer)
4-PREFER Will not cut feet if walked on barefoot

When these requests are required at a sporting complex, you do know that they then install artificial / synthetic turf systems. http://www.fieldturf.com/artificial-tur ... fieldturf/

[bpgreen]

As I remember Philadelphia weather, it rains fairly regularly during the grass season, so I would think that you could get by without watering at all with most northern grasses, although you may get some dormancy during the summer.

Most fescues are bunch grasses, although creeping red spreads slowly. There are also some newer varieties of tall fescue that spread slowly. Rye is also a bunch grass.

If you go with fescue or rye, you'll probably need to overseed periodically.

The fine fescues (creeping red, hard, chewings) do well in shade and don't need as much water as KBG or tall fescue, but they're more sensitive to heat. Tall fescue will stay green longer without water, but once it goes dormant, there's not really a lot of time before it goes dead.

The fine fescues don't grow as fast as KBG, but they will need to be mowed once a week or every other week to look good (some people let them go for a wild look, but they tend to flop when they reach a certain height). Tall fescue grows faster than KBG and will need to be mowed every week.

The turf grass that is best adapted to your area is KBG, but it will need to be fertilized 3x a year and will need to be mowed weekly. If you want it to stay green, you'll need to water, but in the absence of enough water, it will go dormant and come back once it rains, so if you don't mind a lawn that is brown in dry weather, it'll work. My guess is that the water and fertilizer requirements rule it out.

If I knew the native grasses in your area better, I might be able to come up with something, but the native grasses I know are all adapted to the west and would probably not do well where you are.

I think that given your parameters, fine fescues and perennial rye will be your best bet, and if you think you can get away with some clover mixed in, that would be good, too. But be aware that if you have clover, you won't be able to broadcast anything like a weed and feed product (most of us here would advise against that even if you didn't have clover, but you need to realize it up front).