Fall Nitrogen 101 (aka Winterizing?)

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Fall Nitrogen 101 (aka Winterizing?)

Post by drawz » September 3rd, 2016, 12:41 am

Andy's fall nitrogen thread in the cool season forum seems great, but a bit complicated for the beginner. Any tips on a basic regimen to get the newbies here started?

Is it just a matter of throwing down "fall" or "winterizer" fertilizers?
What is the right timing - the Scott's app suggested I use their Fall Lawn Food already (definitely feels too early).
Does overseeding or renovating change the plan?
What do you do with regularly scheduled fertilizer applications - e.g. monthly Milorganite?

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Re: Fall Nitrogen 101 (aka Winterizing?)

Post by seiyafan » September 3rd, 2016, 9:12 am

In layman's terms, you drop urea (100% fast release fertilizer but not sold in HD or Lowes) after labor day, for 1 pound per 1000 sq ft (this provides 0.5 pound of nitrogen per 1000 sq ft) every week until the first frost. Then you wait till the top growth has completely stopped (happens usually in November for your area, we don't give out exact date because every region in every winter is different) then you drop 2 pounds of urea per 1000 sq ft.
If you overseed or renovate, then it's half the amount.
You could also use milorganite but not both 'cause that would be too much. Another thing to keep in mind is that milorganite won't work when the temperature becomes too old, so it's a matter of sticking with urea from the beginning or change to urea later on.

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Re: Fall Nitrogen 101 (aka Winterizing?)

Post by andy10917 » September 3rd, 2016, 9:20 am

For the most part, Urea doesn't meet the conditions for inclusion in Lawn Care Basics 101 postings - all regimens in the 101 area are supposed to be available in big-box stores or local garden centers. Substitute "high-Nitrogen, low Potassium fertilizer" for the word Urea and this is fine.

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Re: Fall Nitrogen 101 (aka Winterizing?)

Post by Billy » September 3rd, 2016, 9:28 am

Lowe's and HD carry plain urea fertilizers. Does this count?

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Re: Fall Nitrogen 101 (aka Winterizing?)

Post by seiyafan » September 3rd, 2016, 9:35 am

Yes.


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Re: Fall Nitrogen 101 (aka Winterizing?)

Post by ken-n-nancy » September 3rd, 2016, 9:37 am

Billy wrote:Lowe's and HD carry plain urea fertilizers. Does this count?
I wonder if this is a regional thing. I haven't seen a plain urea fertilizer (46-0-0) at Lowes or HD in many, many years, but have really only looked at Lowes or HD in NH, Maine, and Massachusetts.

An increasing number of states are also no longer allowing plain urea fertilizer to be sold at retail as a fertilizer. Many states are passing laws which require a certain percentage (varying by state laws) of slow-release nitrogen for retail fertilizers.

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Re: Fall Nitrogen 101 (aka Winterizing?)

Post by andy10917 » September 3rd, 2016, 9:42 am

Sure it counts if HD and Lowes have it. Neither are available around here from those stores, and the keyword "Urea" finds nothing online at either. Please post a link to the online product, or a picture of the product at the store(s) so members know what to look for.

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Re: Fall Nitrogen 101 (aka Winterizing?)

Post by seiyafan » September 3rd, 2016, 9:56 am

What I had done in the past is to look for fertilizer in HD/Lowes that has the highest % of N with the lowest % of slow release and lowest % of Potassium on the label.

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Re: Fall Nitrogen 101 (aka Winterizing?)

Post by andy10917 » September 3rd, 2016, 10:02 am

That's what I was recommending as a good fertilizer to use as a pure-Urea substitute in the "101 level" version.

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Re: Fall Nitrogen 101 (aka Winterizing?)

Post by llO0DQLE » September 3rd, 2016, 1:42 pm

BTW, doing Andy's Fall regimen is not hard esp if you do the conventional version. If you're willing to measure your yard and do some simple math it's fairly easy.

[ Post made via Android ] Image

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Re: Fall Nitrogen 101 (aka Winterizing?)

Post by andy10917 » September 3rd, 2016, 10:24 pm

Agree! But I make sure I follow the same rules as everyone else. If it can't be done from HD, Lowes, or a garden store, it doesn't belong in 101.

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Re: Fall Nitrogen 101 (aka Winterizing?)

Post by drawz » September 3rd, 2016, 11:57 pm

Thanks for the info guys. I can handle this version :)

Measuring the lawn and doing the calculations is easy. I was just confused about the products to use and the timing relative to other things (regular fertilization and renovation/overseeding). Definitely no urea in my HD/Lowes.

At HD, it looks like the highest N and lowest K fertilizer is Scotts regular fertilizer, which is 32-0-4. Their fall winterizer product is 32-0-10. However, it seems that the fall stuff has a smaller percentage of slow release and more urea (I found it!). Which would you recommend? My gut says the fall version.

Analyses from the bags attached.
Image

Image

Since I am overseeding this weekend, I will apply Scotts starter fertilizer with Tenacity this weekend as well. How long to wait after seeding & starter fertilizer before the first application of the fall N regimen?

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Re: Fall Nitrogen 101 (aka Winterizing?)

Post by andy10917 » September 4th, 2016, 8:57 am

Many fertilizers use Urea as a Nitrogen source.

The fertilizers that contain Potassium (Potash) are OK in September, but there is some evidence that Potassium can worsen winter kill. We don't recommend any fertilizers with significant Potassium after September.

I would wait three weeks after the Starter fertilizer, before any other Fall fertilizers, but that also depends on the type of grass seed used. PR lawns are almost maturing at 3 weeks, and KBG is barely done germinating. Fertilizing newly-emerged grass can cause forced top growth at the expense of root growth - which certainly doesn't help the chances for winter survival.

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Re: Fall Nitrogen 101 (aka Winterizing?)

Post by ken-n-nancy » September 4th, 2016, 9:01 am

drawz wrote:At HD, it looks like the highest N and lowest K fertilizer is Scotts regular fertilizer, which is 32-0-4. Their fall winterizer product is 32-0-10. However, it seems that the fall stuff has a smaller percentage of slow release and more urea (I found it!). Which would you recommend? My gut says the fall version.
As you mention from the labels, the standard Turf Builder is 9% slow-release (28% of the nitrogen applied; 9/32 =~ 28%) while the fall winterizer is 6.8% slow release (21% of the nitrogen applied; 6.8/32 =~ 21%). This isn't a real big difference, but the winterizer product does contain a higher percentage of fast-release.

One thing I really like about the Scotts Turf Builder products is that the potash is the preferable "sulfate of potash" (aka potassium sulfate) instead of the harsher "muriate of potash" (aka potassium chloride). Many of us trying to supplement potassium-deficient soil prefer the sulfate of potash. Scotts Turf Builder is the only one of the mass-market lawn fertilizers that I am aware of that contains sulfate of potash instead of muriate of potash.

Another concern, though, is the potassium application if one continues the applications until late fall. However, even though I don't really have personal experience with this problem, many here have mentioned that there have been research studies in recent years which have linked early spring snow mold problems with late fall applications of potassium on cool season lawns. Accordingly, the typical ST6 advice has been to cease significant applications of potassium after early fall. So, my bigger concern would be the use of the Scotts Winterizer product any time after about 3 weeks before your first frost.
drawz wrote:Since I am overseeding this weekend, I will apply Scotts starter fertilizer with Tenacity this weekend as well. How long to wait after seeding & starter fertilizer before the first application of the fall N regimen?
The conventional recommendation on this site is to withhold supplemental N fertilization after seeding until newly-seeded grass has emerged from "sprout and pout." For PRG or fine fescue, they don't see much sprout and pout, maybe only about 1 week after germination, while KBG can take a long time for some cultivars - maybe as long as a month or so after germination.

Due to the special needs of newly-germinated grass, many here seem to go with a urea "spoon-feeding" approach on seedlings by applying urea weekly in very small doses of somewhere between 0.25#N/week and 0.50#N/week. I still haven't figured out what I think is the right approach for me, as each of the past three renovation years for me have had non-standard circumstances (in various years, late seeding, washout, abnormally warm temperatures, etc.) which have led to me deviate from the "one size fits all" plan a bit.

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Re: Fall Nitrogen 101 (aka Winterizing?)

Post by drawz » September 4th, 2016, 9:56 pm

Ok, thanks again guys. Any readily available source of potassium free (or reduced) fertilizer?

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Re: Fall Nitrogen 101 (aka Winterizing?)

Post by seiyafan » September 4th, 2016, 10:25 pm

If you have a smaller lawn and don't mind paying extra you can get urea on Amazon.

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Re: Fall Nitrogen 101 (aka Winterizing?)

Post by lawndad » September 6th, 2016, 10:10 am

I just overseeded TTTF (Hogan's blend) and applied the Scotts Starter Fert. +weed preventer on 9/2. I plan to stick with the Scott's Fall "Winterizer" product (the red bag not the orange with Dicamba in it) this season.

When and how do you apply it to maximize the Spring outcome? I am not sure of the mature time that it takes for TTTF before I should begin this. I am at least waiting 2 weeks before mowing the lawn again... :confused:

I was reading above that applying this product any time after about 3 weeks before your first frost will possibly cause problems. So, you can't really apply this after top growth stops similar to the urea plan then, correct? I always thought if you cut TTTF lower in the fall before it goes dormant you can avoid snow mold because the turf isn't long to get many issues.

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Re: Fall Nitrogen 101 (aka Winterizing?)

Post by Darkshadow » September 7th, 2016, 10:29 am

drawz wrote:Ok, thanks again guys. Any readily available source of potassium free (or reduced) fertilizer?
You're seeing why this regimen wasn't posted in the 101 forum. You're probably not going to find what you're looking for at the big box stores. And whatever you do find will probably force you to alter the plan due to the other nutrients in the fertilizer you choose.

You could try calling some local garden stores and asking if they have any products that match what you're looking for. Otherwise, take a read through the original thread in the non-101 forum and see if it's something you're willing to tackle. Lots of good questions have been asked and answered, so make sure to read through the entire thread.

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Re: Fall Nitrogen 101 (aka Winterizing?)

Post by ezael » September 13th, 2016, 11:59 pm

seiyafan wrote:In layman's terms, you drop urea (100% fast release fertilizer but not sold in HD or Lowes) after labor day, for 1 pound per 1000 sq ft (this provides 0.5 pound of nitrogen per 1000 sq ft) every week until the first frost. Then you wait till the top growth has completely stopped (happens usually in November for your area, we don't give out exact date because every region in every winter is different) then you drop 2 pounds of urea per 1000 sq ft.
If you overseed or renovate, then it's half the amount.
You could also use milorganite but not both 'cause that would be too much. Another thing to keep in mind is that milorganite won't work when the temperature becomes too old, so it's a matter of sticking with urea from the beginning or change to urea later on.
When he says drop 1/2 the amount if you renovated, is that for the entire season regiment or just the winterizing application? Thanks

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Re: Fall Nitrogen 101 (aka Winterizing?)

Post by seiyafan » September 14th, 2016, 8:15 pm

My concern was that new seedlings may not handle the amount of nitrogen on a weekly basis so I reduced it in half to err on the safe side, but I don't know if that's indeed true or not.

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