Do I need a full reno?

[tigerfan]

Hi all,

First post, but I've been trying to read as much as possible. Sorry, if this ends up covering what everyone has already said a thousand times. I did search and read a lot, but I still don't know what to do.

I just moved into a new house on an acre with a nice, basically level back yard... full of crabgrass. And I mean full. I'm not sure what to do to start caring for the lawn right away. First, let me state my goals:

- I have two daughters, a dog and two cats that I want to be able to enjoy a big yard to play in. They don't care what the grass is - they actually think the fluffy green crab is fine (while it's alive...).
- I've always loved good turf and I want to just sit on my back patio or out in the yard with my coffee in the morning or a beer on Saturday and stare at beautiful green (I don't know why this is hard for my wife to understand, but I know you get it).
- So, a perfect lawn would be great and is what I'll target long term, but imperfect and green for the kids to play next spring/summer is better than something done correctly but with poor results for next season.

My primary concern is timing. Not only is it already getting later in the season, but we have a ton going on with new jobs, schools, other new house projects, visitors, blah blah, life. I've read a lot of the renovation threads and I'm pretty sure it's too late for me to start a complete reno: spray to kill, wait, scalp, rake, spray again, wait, soil test, wait, fertilize?, wait, seed, etc. nor do I really have time to do all those things. Seeding would likely end up late Oct. at best.

I also read this on seedsuperstore under their reno instructions: "You can overseed into existing grassy weeds like crabgrass and then apply pre-emergent crabgrass killer the following spring to remove crabgrass from your lawn." Let me reemphasize my crabgrass... it's like, ALL crabgrass.

So, here are my questions:

- What will happen if I mow very short/scalp the existing crabgrass now, aerate middle of next week, rent a slit seeder for best soil/seed contact and seed end of next week (easily as late as 10/7)? The county extension recommended seeding TTTF two weeks ago, so I'd be 3-4 weeks late, but maybe that's fine?

- What will happen if I do nothing this season? I've never seen this much crabgrass and I assume it's going to die off in winter and basically look horrible anyway. Since I can't really seed cool season turf in spring, I'm guessing I'll have other weeds/dirt until mid summer when tons of crabgrass comes back up. No bueno.

- What will happen if I don't seed but then start a pre-emergent regimen in the spring? That seems like that might be even worse: no grass, no crabgrass, hello some new hardy weed. Garbage lawn all through next summer before complete reno in Fall.

Thanks in advance for any advice. Let me know if I left out any important details.

For reference, here's my 10 day forecast:



Thanks!!

[andy10917]

I don't have the time right now to address each question, but here are a few comments that (if you agree with them) will knock out many questions:

(1) Ignore the crabgrass: you have already lost the battle for 2017. You could spend time and money and fight, or you could wait for frost to kill it. The end-result will happen at approximately the same time.

(2) Forget doing a one-acre renovation: no mortal human can do it at once. I've done more renovations than you can dream of - the most I've ever done at once was 16K. I have an acre.

(3) A Spring Renovation is possible today: but it takes herbicides you've never heard of, and irrigation big-time.

Question: if the lawn is basically 100% crabgrass, what does it look like before the crabgrass arrives in later Spring?

[tigerfan]

Thanks, Andy! I'll try to answer questions below:

(1) Ignore the crabgrass: you have already lost the battle for 2017. You could spend time and money and fight, or you could wait for frost to kill it. The end-result will happen at approximately the same time.

I agree there's nothing I can do about the crabgrass. Wondering if I just leave it (cut short) and slit-seed if I can establish something new. Of course I'll put down pre-emergent in the spring to hopefully avoid a comeback.

(2) Forget doing a one-acre renovation: no mortal human can do it at once. I've done more renovations than you can dream of - the most I've ever done at once was 16K. I have an acre.

This is a really good point and I'm worried about how much I can do. That said, the lot is an acre - not the yard. I haven't been there long enough to do any real measurements, but with online aerial measurement tools, it looks like a total of 14-16K of lawn. Tree coverage makes it tough to do a great aerial measurement, but that's close.

(3) A Spring Renovation is possible today: but it takes herbicides you've never heard of, and irrigation big-time.

Question: if the lawn is basically 100% crabgrass, what does it look like before the crabgrass arrives in later Spring?

I have no idea because I just moved in 3 weeks ago, but that's what I'm worried about. I assume it looks like dead crabgrass and dirt.

So, in your opinion is it worth seeding now without a full reno?

[andy10917]

So, in your opinion is it worth seeding now without a full reno?

If I take you at your word that it is 100% crabgrass, I don't think you have a choice. You're going to have to Pre-M in the Spring and I don't think Tenacity will be enough to keep the barbarian crabgrass at the gate. That eliminates Spring seeding. So... the only other option (not great) is get something down now.

[tigerfan]

If I take you at your word that it is 100% crabgrass, I don't think you have a choice.

Thanks. Yeah, I know it's not ideal. I'll start with this plan and see how it goes. Here are a couple shots I just took. Not sure you can see what you need in these, but the whole yard looks like this:

[TimmyG]

Impressive!

[greenrebellion]

Wow, impressive indeed. That's quite the crabgrass monostand you've got there. Proper pre-emergent application in Spring is going to be absolutely essential.

[probasesteal]

Holy cow batman

[HoosierLawnGnome]

A big renovation takes a lot of planning and patience.

You're signing up for a ton of frustration if you take on an acres as your first and expect to achieve the results you see many achieve here by mid October - especially without irrigation.

I'd get some sort of coverage down now as mentioned previously, but I'd think about what my long term plans are before pulling the trigger on a full-dose of pre-emergent next spring. You have all winter to plan and decide.

Option C: Sod

[Marinegrunt]

I'm with Hoosier on really wanting to know what you want to do before applying a pre m in the spring. If anything use a really low rate.

I think I'd toss some seed on about a 50' x 50' area right off the back patio now in hopes of maybe having a small area for the girls to play on. You could also toss a little more seed early spring if needed. I would then start getting things together to reno part of the yard in the fall. It would also give you plenty of time to research. Who knows, maybe there's more grass in there than you realize. You'll find out next year.

[tigerfan]

Hey guys, Thanks for all the replies. I do have irrigation, so I'm hoping I can keep the new seed properly moist. I mowed the crabgrass low and removed all the material. Luckily there is not significant thatch. I'm planning to aerate mid week to loosen things up although it's not terribly compacted in most places. I'm waiting for seed to arrive and I'll rent a slit-seeder to put it down. I'll begin the process of getting samples and a soil test, but I won't have that back before seeding.

For those worried about the large area I'm attempting, I'm totally with you. I figure if I screw it up, the crabgrass will come back and I'm no worse off than I am now (except the loss of this time and money of course, which I'm willing to gamble). If I can't get a good stand of TTTF in this round, are you suggesting go light/no pre-emergent in the spring in some areas so as to let the crabgrass come back so we have something there? Sorry if I'm not understanding.

Here are a couple of shots post mowing for reference. I hope this height is okay. ~85-90% leaf removed leaving the plant base intact to hopefully hold against any immediate rain/irrigation erosion. It seems like it will stress/kill the current crabgrass enough to reduce competition with the new seed, but still leaves some plant material to hold the soil for now. If you guys think I should go ahead and truly scalp, I can certainly do that. It seems thin and low enough to allow the seed to come up basically unfettered.






Thanks!

[Marinegrunt]

A soil test before seed down is no big deal. It's so you know what amendments your soil needs. If you seed you'll have to put off the amendments anyways.

Reason for going light on the pre m was brought up is because of you go the heavy rate with Dimension it can last up to 8 months. You'd then be out of luck if you wanted to plant more grass seed come fall. A pre m won't only keep weeds from coming up but also grass seed. That's why it's important to get a longterm plan together before you apply a pre m. You don't want to screw yourself out of a spring or even fall seeding of that's in your plans. One exception is Tenacity but it only lasts for 30 days as a pre m and is used more at seed down than as a long-term pre m. It all depends on what your plans are though.

[kevreh]

So, what seed did you order?
Those pics look a lot more yellow than the earlier photos. Dormant from lack of rain? Confused why its so yellow since you have irrigation.
Since your renting some nice equipment, try to get top dresser. Kind of like a drop spreader for fertilizer but you use topsoil/peat moss/compost with it.
When is your typical first frost, guessing late October?

With overseeding now, and heavy pre-m in the spring, your lawn may really turn around next year. For pre-m I use Dimension.

[probasesteal]

I like the idea this fall. Seed it now, let crabgrass die this winter and Dimension in the spring (consider an app this fall). Expect thin spots, but you can let it grow in and overseed next fall with TTTF.

[tigerfan]

Houston, we have a problem.

Remember that I just moved in weeks ago. I'd seen sprinkler heads and counted 7 zones wired to a controller in the garage, but hadn't investigated fully. Long story short, there are problems with the system I can't solve quickly. I need another more manual way to water after seeding at least in the short term.

The hose timers I can find quickly at home stores, Walmart, etc. don't seem to have the flexibility to run multiple times per day. Any suggestions for a timer and Daisy chained hose/sprinkler system? Ideally, something I can pick up locally in the interest of time.

To answer a couple of previous questions:

It's yellowish now because it's pretty much crabgrass stems after the very short mowing. Seed just arrived today from Hancock seed. I got their TTTF blend as well as a some KBG and shade creeping red fescue that I will mix in as I get to shadier areas. Full sun areas (most of the lawn) will get 80/20 TTTF/KBG.

Thanks again for everyone's help! I'm nervous about how late it's getting with the continued issues, but I'm set on getting it done. I'll keep posting updates as I go.

[Green]

Nice thread! The all-crabgrass lawn is (was) pretty cool. Too bad it dies out in the Winter!

Sounds like you still have plenty of time before frost to establish grass well (unlike here, where the average first frost is mid October, and we're fighting against time).

There are some timers that can be set up the way you want...check out this thread: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=23350&p=316552&hilit=orbit#p316522

[tigerfan]

Quick update: I read through that thread and picked up several Orbit timers and a gaggle of hoses and sprinklers from the home store. Unfortunately, I think there's just too much coverage needed for a system like this (at any reasonable cost anyway). I would need probably 18 heads (at least at the bibb pressure I'm getting), 2-3 4-way timers and an unreal amount of hose just for the back yard.

By the time I had things tested and failing in the yard Friday, I couldn't get hold of anyone, but Monday, I'll try to get someone out to troubleshoot and quote upgrades for the in-ground system (the right way to begin with). Once again, time is slipping quickly away. I may just seed and set up hoses/timers on the small front yard this year and let the crabgrass reign again in the back.

If I magically get a reasonable quote for a quick fix/update to the in-ground system, I'll try to resume the back yard work as well. Assuming I can't do that, does anyone have tips for storing about 80% of the seed I bought? I've read "cool/dry" storage and an expected loss of about 10% germination rate per year.

Thanks!

[kevreh]

whats wrong with the in ground system?

[Marinegrunt]

I can't imagine how many hoses you would need for 16k. I'm currently set up with hoses for my a little under 10k and have almost 20 hoses and 14 rotors. Luckily I had some generous neighbors who offered to let me borrow hoses they weren't using.

I plan on storing seed in 5 gallon buckets this winter. I figure if I fill it to the top most of the air should be pushed out. I wonder if it would help to pour the seed into a 13 gallon plastic trash bag or a handful of large baggie first?

Hopefully you can get your irrigation figured out right asap and can still get everything seeded.