Fallowing

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southern-ct-4
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Fallowing

Post by southern-ct-4 » September 2nd, 2020, 2:46 pm

Sorry, can someone let me know exactly what is meant by fallowing? Is it literally doing nothing for a few weeks? Is it watering and glyphosating for a few weeks (after a blanket app or 2 but before seeding)..?

And how long should I fallow for (I have issues with poa triv).

Thank you.

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Re: Fallowing

Post by MorpheusPA » September 2nd, 2020, 3:15 pm

The technical definition of allowing something to lie fallow is to do nothing. We, however, usually don't quite mean that, although if you want to do that, it's fine. It'll certainly help--do nothing, then hit it with a second round of glyphosate some time before you seed to kill off any weeds that sprouted.

Fallowing before a reno would be to kill it early (May, June, early July, however long you can stand to look at it), keep watering if you can, and kill weeds as you can (preferably before they seed). How that schedule works out is up to you.

P. triv and P. annua are a challenge because they're fall-sprouting, so a fallowing won't take care of them, just the existing adult plants. They're going to want to sprout with your seeds, or during the early growth phase of your renovation. For those, I'd use a starter fertilizer with Mesotrione, or a spray with Tenacity (same thing) at seed time, and a month later, to try to help suppress those out. Similarly, don't forget to use a pre-emergent early in spring to confound P. annua that spring sprouts, although that's a very much lesser threat in most cases--your Tenacity shield is long gone by that time.

You'll probably also be continuing the battle with Tenacity the following year post your renovation. No pre-emergent is perfect.

southern-ct-4
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Re: Fallowing

Post by southern-ct-4 » September 2nd, 2020, 3:24 pm

Thanks Morpheus, that's perfect.

Follow-up question; given that triv is fall-sprouting, does it possibly make any sense to kill everything in the late summer/fall (which would kill the triv?), fallow all the way until the early spring, doing the 2nd blanket roundup and then seed (which of course isn't the ideal time to do so)? Just thinking out loud but am curious if this makes any sense.

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Re: Fallowing

Post by MorpheusPA » September 2nd, 2020, 3:34 pm

If you could live with looking at it the full year, reseeding the following August would actually be best. Or putting down sod in spring would confound the issue.

Spring seedings are tough to bring through summer, so it wouldn't be anything I'd recommend for a wide scale reno. Spot seeding, sure.

One solution might be to use annual rye in April, which'll look OK and is pretty cheap and who cares what happens to it, then kill that in July, fallow to August 15, and reno in August. It's a lot of extra steps, but it would work.

You'll still have triv and annua issues--one year isn't going to reduce the seed bank or incoming seed to zero, I still get sprouts after fifteen years--but they'll certainly be reduced. I'm sure your surrounding properties have problems that lead to yours getting incoming seed. I certainly do. My Tenacity applications accidentally...slip...onto other properties when I apply them by...accidentally...about twenty feet. In dark of night with a lit miner's helmet on.

Seriously, it's totally ninja.

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Re: Fallowing

Post by southern-ct-4 » September 2nd, 2020, 3:38 pm

MorpheusPA wrote:
September 2nd, 2020, 3:34 pm
If you could live with looking at it the full year, reseeding the following August would actually be best. Or putting down sod in spring would confound the issue.

Spring seedings are tough to bring through summer, so it wouldn't be anything I'd recommend for a wide scale reno. Spot seeding, sure.

One solution might be to use annual rye in April, which'll look OK and is pretty cheap and who cares what happens to it, then kill that in July, fallow to August 15, and reno in August. It's a lot of extra steps, but it would work.

You'll still have triv and annua issues--one year isn't going to reduce the seed bank or incoming seed to zero, I still get sprouts after fifteen years--but they'll certainly be reduced. I'm sure your surrounding properties have problems that lead to yours getting incoming seed. I certainly do. My Tenacity applications accidentally...slip...onto other properties when I apply them by...accidentally...about twenty feet. In dark of night with a lit miner's helmet on.

Seriously, it's totally ninja.
That's awesome... :)

Thanks again. That all sounds good but definitely too many steps for me for too big an area. I'll continue to digest this info and try to figure something out.


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Re: Fallowing

Post by MorpheusPA » September 2nd, 2020, 5:18 pm

If it were me? And it was me? (Although I was using alternates at the time, not Tenacity)

Use Tenacity at seed down and one month later, then use a pre-emergent in spring and again in fall. That will zap 95% of the issue. Spot-spray with Tenacity that second year as necessary to remove the inevitable issues.

I can't tell you to not worry about the technical issue of exceeding the yearly annual maximum in those particular spots as P. triv can be difficult to take out. So therefore, I didn't tell you that I did exactly that. I never said it. It never crossed my lips that I simply didn't concern myself with it in any given spot as long as I was well under the limits property-wide. It was completely unspoken and unmentioned.

And you've seen the photos. At this point, I have, perhaps, 2 minor sprigs of annua a year, zapped with Tenacity in April. See ya later, alligator.

Tenacity makes life easier than the Certainty I had, which is harsher, or the areas I just took out with RoundUp and let the bluegrass fill in.

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Re: Fallowing

Post by southern-ct-4 » September 2nd, 2020, 5:23 pm

Thanks again for the info (and the laugh). When you mention using tenacity to spot spray, I thought tenacity doesn't work to kill triv, so you lost me there a little bit.

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Re: Fallowing

Post by andy10917 » September 2nd, 2020, 7:10 pm

I thought tenacity doesn't work to kill triv, so you lost me there a little bit.
When used as directed by the label, Tenacity does not kill Poa Triv - it injures it, but it will come back in 3-5 months. But just as a single whack in the face with a shovel probably wouldn't outright kill you, if every time you tried to stand up, you got hit again, sooner or later you'd succumb (or learn not to try to stand up).

In the world of herbicides, you can't claim a product is a killer of some weed or other if you can't do it within the labelled limit of the herbicide (duh!).

Years ago, I spoke to Customer Support at Syngenta and asked about what the effects of more than 16 oz/yr/acre might be. They suddenly got very vague and mentioned longer-lasting metabolites (what products it breaks down into), etc. It was very clear that they weren't about to say anything that could be interpreted as an off-label use - probably with good legal or regulatory reason.

So, I personally never offer advice that recommends the use of an herbicide in a manner that is against the label directions. But logic would say that (like the shovel to the face), the Triv wouldn't last forever if you kept hitting it (and no, I have no experience doing that).

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ken-n-nancy
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Re: Fallowing

Post by ken-n-nancy » September 2nd, 2020, 7:24 pm

southern-ct-4 wrote:
September 2nd, 2020, 3:24 pm
Follow-up question; given that triv is fall-sprouting, does it possibly make any sense to kill everything in the late summer/fall (which would kill the triv?), fallow all the way until the early spring, doing the 2nd blanket roundup and then seed (which of course isn't the ideal time to do so)? Just thinking out loud but am curious if this makes any sense.
Short answer is, "yes, it makes sense to kill Poa trivialis in the fall of one year, for seeding in the next year." Indeed, that's exactly what we did in our "War On Triv" renovation of our front lawn in the fall of 2018!

We actually sprayed the Poa trivialis on September of 2017. Below photo is from 2017-09-26:
Image

We replaced as many as we could with transplanted sod, but then allowed the remainder to fallow until the fallowing August of 2018. Below photo from 2017-10-04:
Image

Below is a picture of our front lawn in July 2018, with many "fallowing patches" of former Poa trivialis, below photo from 2018-07-27:
Image

And lastly, two years later, in hopes that it was worth it, our front lawn as of the height of summer on 2020-07-18:
Image

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Re: Fallowing

Post by MorpheusPA » September 2nd, 2020, 9:32 pm

andy10917 wrote:
September 2nd, 2020, 7:10 pm
So, I personally never offer advice that recommends the use of an herbicide in a manner that is against the label directions. But logic would say that (like the shovel to the face), the Triv wouldn't last forever if you kept hitting it (and no, I have no experience doing that).
To speak rather obliquely...or not so...back when I had a more prominent role here, I wouldn't have either. Now, as a Just A Member, I can admit to some of my more creative endeavors.

In this case, where I'm not even exceeding the application rate for 100 square feet, I'm unconcerned with the repeated pummeling method.

Although you'd be surprised what simply using good timing, naturally soft water and extra surfactant will do for you in terms of not having to use things twice.

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Re: Fallowing

Post by southern-ct-4 » September 3rd, 2020, 8:16 am

Ok thanks all. I think I've got it now. And no, I definitely won't do anything I'm not supposed to... ;)

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Re: Fallowing

Post by southern-ct-4 » September 3rd, 2020, 11:07 am

MorpheusPA wrote:
September 2nd, 2020, 5:18 pm
If it were me? And it was me? (Although I was using alternates at the time, not Tenacity)

Use Tenacity at seed down and one month later, then use a pre-emergent in spring and again in fall. That will zap 95% of the issue. Spot-spray with Tenacity that second year as necessary to remove the inevitable issues.

I can't tell you to not worry about the technical issue of exceeding the yearly annual maximum in those particular spots as P. triv can be difficult to take out. So therefore, I didn't tell you that I did exactly that. I never said it. It never crossed my lips that I simply didn't concern myself with it in any given spot as long as I was well under the limits property-wide. It was completely unspoken and unmentioned.

And you've seen the photos. At this point, I have, perhaps, 2 minor sprigs of annua a year, zapped with Tenacity in April. See ya later, alligator.

Tenacity makes life easier than the Certainty I had, which is harsher, or the areas I just took out with RoundUp and let the bluegrass fill in.
For the spot spraying that I definitely won't be doing, how should I not mix it in a 1 gallon hand sprayer? Should I not use 1 tsp, 2 tsp...?

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Re: Fallowing

Post by MorpheusPA » September 3rd, 2020, 12:28 pm

southern-ct-4 wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 11:07 am
For the spot spraying that I definitely won't be doing, how should I not mix it in a 1 gallon hand sprayer? Should I not use 1 tsp, 2 tsp...?
Definitely don't mix it exactly according to bottle instructions. You don't want to exactly dose it properly to assure that there's no over or under-dose.

If you follow that.

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Re: Fallowing

Post by southern-ct-4 » September 3rd, 2020, 1:21 pm

Well, maybe/sort of/not really :)

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Re: Fallowing

Post by MorpheusPA » September 3rd, 2020, 1:29 pm

I don't understand perfectly. Don't have at!

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ken-n-nancy
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Re: Fallowing

Post by ken-n-nancy » September 3rd, 2020, 7:13 pm

This is one of the more interesting conversations we're not having... ;)

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Re: Fallowing

Post by Masbustelo » September 3rd, 2020, 9:05 pm

This is all interesting to me, as I know I have a big poa triv battle ahead of me next year. Which is harder on the turf? Four applications of Tenacity or using Certainty protocol?

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Re: Fallowing

Post by MorpheusPA » September 3rd, 2020, 9:05 pm

I heard you perfectly, please repeat yourself.

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Re: Fallowing

Post by andy10917 » September 3rd, 2020, 9:12 pm

Which is harder on the turf? Four applications of Tenacity or using Certainty protocol?
Certainty is tougher. Used right, it's more effective but it leaves some ugliness.

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Re: Fallowing

Post by MorpheusPA » September 3rd, 2020, 9:36 pm

I'd tend to agree. It's going to do some damage to your lawn, but if the problem is spotty then go with Certainty. If it's a little more widespread and you don't want to look at the Ugliness, Tenacity.

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