What next for pre-m application for reno

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SNOWBOB11
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What next for pre-m application for reno

Post by SNOWBOB11 » September 21st, 2017, 11:13 am

Looking for some help with what next to do with regarding fall pre-m for my reno. I'm at day 34 as of today, I put down tenacity at seed down at 4oz acre rate. My seeds sprouted around day 6 so if I follow the 30 days from germination recommendation I can put down a follar application of tenacity it the next few days. This was going to be my original plan but at day 21 I dropped some extra seed in a few spots so that means the new seed is only 13 days old. If I spray tenacity with surfactant in the next few days do you think it will damage the new seeds? I don't seem to have very much weed pressure at all so should I spray the tenacity without a surfactant to fight against any grassy weed germination?

I also need to think about an app of prodomine and I see on the label you are to wait 60 days after seed to apply it. That would be late October by the time I can apply it. That seems really late. I'm not sure anything would be germinating by then. Not to mention if I apply it at day 60 that's still 3 weeks before I should be applying it on the reseeded areas.

I'm not sure what the best course of action is for my specific needs. Right now I'm thinking to wait until about day 40 apply tenacity with surfactant then apply prodomine at day 60 and not worry too much about the areas I reseeded. Do you guys think this is a good plan or will I damage the new seeds and should take a different course of action? As always any help would be great.

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Re: What next for pre-m application for reno

Post by greenrebellion » September 21st, 2017, 12:07 pm

In my experience, KBG seedlings are extremely resilient to Tenacity applications. Both last year and this year, with different cultivars, I've hit seedlings that had been up for a week and they were fine, just don't get too aggressive with your applications on the younger grass.

Have you looked at Dithiopyr for your pre-em? Zac Reicher's research showed that 14 days after emergence, there is no negative impact on KBG (at labeled dosage rates). I'm using Jonathan Green Crabgrass Preventer for my fall pre-emergent, then switching to Prodiamine in Spring.

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Re: What next for pre-m application for reno

Post by SNOWBOB11 » September 21st, 2017, 2:09 pm

Interesting. So jonathan green has the same ingredient (Dithiopyr) as Dimension correct? I wasn't sure whether to go with dimension or prodiamine this fall. I was thinking prodiamine because if by any chance there's any over winter damage and I have to reseed any areas I thought Dimension inhibited germination for 1 year. I could be very wrong about that though. I'll have to check into that. Thanks for the info about Tenacity. I did see in your thread that you were going early with your apps of tenacity and it worked out well for you but I know your situation was unique with the heavy poa pressure. I wasn't sure if in general it would be ok to apply earlier than label recommendation. If you applied on seedlings that were 1 week from germination and they were ok and you did multiple apps, if I apply at at two weeks from germination I probably should be fine.

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Re: What next for pre-m application for reno

Post by Marinegrunt » September 21st, 2017, 2:37 pm

One thing to keep in mind is overseeding so check the table and apply at a rate that will end when you plan on touching up any areas. If you plan on putting down in October but, want to touch up some bare spots in March or dormant seed earlier, apply at the lower rate. I think I might use Prodiamine at a low rate this fall in hopes of dormant seeding in March. I'm pretty sure you can adjust the length of time they stay active depending on application rates. Greenrebellion can give better info than I can.

I have TTTG +10% KBG but am glad you asked this question. Apps types for a pre em are probably pretty similar though. I've been reading up on what pre em to use after a reno but I couldn't seem to find a good answer.

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Re: What next for pre-m application for reno

Post by greenrebellion » September 21st, 2017, 5:48 pm

Yes, just read the label. At least on the Jonathan Green bag it tells you how long it controls for based on various rates. I'll be applying at the 3 month rate which is all I need as the ground will be frozen by December.


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Re: What next for pre-m application for reno

Post by SNOWBOB11 » September 22nd, 2017, 1:05 pm

Thanks for the responses greenrebellion. If by any chance there is anyone else out there that might have used prodiamine on seeds there were about 35-40 days old, it would be great to hear your experiences on if there was any damage caused by it. I'm not sure which one to use between dimension or prodiamine. I think i'm going to go the route of, tenacity at day 40-45 from seed down (day 19-24 for areas I reseeded) and them pre-m at day 60 from seed down (day 39 for areas I reseeded). Now I just need to decide which one would be better to use between dimension or prodiamine. I like the fact that the dithiopyr showed no effect on seedlings 14 days after germination in the report greenrebellion talked about, but I also see lots of people using prodiamine. I'm not sure which way to go and which would be better.

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Re: What next for pre-m application for reno

Post by Green » September 23rd, 2017, 8:54 pm

I can't address the Prodiamine or Dimension at day 35-40, but I can tell you that Dimension does not "inhibit germination for one year". How long anything lasts is determined only by how much you apply and the weather and soil conditions.

In my experience in the Spring and Summer, a 4 lb/K app of granular 0.15% Dimension lasts from about April 15th to August 5th, or perhaps a week or two less than that. I can tell by how much crabgrass breaks through.

In cooler temperatures, it may last longer, but I have no way of telling. So, I just go by the above experience for an estimate. I'm actually using a fertilizer with Prodiamine instead of Dimension currently. In December, I'll put down a final Dimension app to last at least until the ground freezes.

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Re: What next for pre-m application for reno

Post by SNOWBOB11 » September 23rd, 2017, 10:56 pm

I should of looked up the label on the dimension and I would of seen that the amount of time it lasts is dependent on the amount you apply. My bad.

The fact that prodiamine says not to apply it on seeds less than 60 days old is a concern to me with the areas I reseeded. I reseeded the areas 3 weeks after the initial seeding so that would take me to November 7th before I would be able to apply the prodiamine. By that time there would be no point in applying it I would think, as it would be so late in the year. I can't seem to find on the label for dimension how long after seeding is ok to apply. I know greenrebellion posted that Zac Reicher's research showed no impact on KBG 14 days after seeding but i'm not sure if that's for granular or liquid. I'm only able to get the liquid dimension.

I'm still not sure which way is best for me to go but I think I'm leaning toward dimension applied around two months after initial seeding at the 3 month rate and hope there's no damage to the reseeded areas. I'll also be applying tenacity later next week when the weather cools off which would be around day 42 from seed down. If anyone thinks this is a bad plan or thinks I should go with prodiamine instead of dimension don't hesitate to say my plan sounds wrong.

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Re: What next for pre-m application for reno

Post by Green » September 23rd, 2017, 11:29 pm

Tenacity lasts 4-6 weeks, so with 2 apps, you'll get to November no problem. Wait 28 days after germination before applying it to an area, though, just to be sure you don't kill anything. Then you can use Dimension or Prodiamine in late October or early November and not worry about killing anything by accident with that either.

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Re: What next for pre-m application for reno

Post by Jackpine » September 24th, 2017, 6:01 am

If you do the second Tenacity app the first week of October that should give you coverage for a couple more weeks at least. By then a pre-emergent may not be needed. Still, I'd have that dimension handy in case October temps are warmer than usual.

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Re: What next for pre-m application for reno

Post by SNOWBOB11 » September 24th, 2017, 9:23 am

Ok, that sounds good to me. Thanks for the replies. Second tenacity app end of this month or start of October, and pre-em end of October. That way no harming of anything. I probably made this more difficult than it had to be but things are going fairly well with the reno I didn't want to botch it up now. Thanks again.

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Re: What next for pre-m application for reno

Post by Green » September 24th, 2017, 11:31 pm

Also...if you're really concerned, do not do a foliar app (post-M app, using non-ionic surfactant) of Tenacity. Just use it as a pre-M without the NIS. And then water immediately with at least 1/10th-inch of water to wash it off the grass and into the soil.

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Re: What next for pre-m application for reno

Post by SNOWBOB11 » September 25th, 2017, 8:42 am

I thought about doing that but wasn't sure whether it would be a good idea or not. Maybe what I'll do is spray most of the lawn with the tenacity/surfactant, and the areas I reseeded I'll mix a batch and try and spray without surfactant.

Last two questions on this. If I do use surfactant on some areas, how much surfactant would you mix into 1 gallon of tenacity when used at the 4oz rate? I looked on the tenacity label but can't seem to find an answer. Also and i'm pretty sure I know the answer is no to this as it's not a foliar herbicide, but just to be sure, no surfactant mixed into dimension/prodiamine correct? Thanks

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Re: What next for pre-m application for reno

Post by greenrebellion » September 25th, 2017, 9:12 am

There are spot treatment instructions on the Tenacity label that shows amount of surfactant per 2 gallons. So just take whatever that surfactant amount is and divide by 2 for one gallon.

And you are correct, no surfactant is needed for dimension or prodiamine.

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Re: What next for pre-m application for reno

Post by ken-n-nancy » September 25th, 2017, 9:13 am

SNOWBOB11 wrote:
September 25th, 2017, 8:42 am
Last two questions on this. If I do use surfactant on some areas, how much surfactant would you mix into 1 gallon of tenacity when used at the 4oz rate?
I think I've seen Andy post that he adds "1 glug" of surfactant for each gallon of water. (I presume you mean 1 gallon of water with a tiny bit of tenacity mixed in -- 1 gallon of tenacity would cover 32 acres at the 4oz rate.) The connotation here is that a precise amount of surfactant isn't required -- it's not even entirely clear what the right amount would be -- you need some, but not a whole lot, and whether it's 0.5oz or 1.0oz or 1.5oz or 2.0oz doesn't make a big difference.

If you want to be more precise in your measurement, the answer is going to depend upon the specific surfactant you're using -- different surfactants would have different recommended mixing rates depending upon the concentration of the surfactant you are using, which none of us can answer for you without reading the label on the specific surfactant you're using. The NIS that I use from tractor supply recommends about a 100:1 mixing rate, so I aim for somewhere between 1oz and 1.5oz per gallon, but I don't use the same level of precision for the surfactant measurement as I do for the Tenacity measurement.
SNOWBOB11 wrote:
September 25th, 2017, 8:42 am
I looked on the tenacity label but can't seem to find an answer.
How much surfactant to use won't be on the Tenacity label, but on the surfactant label -- how much surfactant to use depends upon the concentration of the surfactant you are using, which isn't known to the folks authoring the surfactant label.
SNOWBOB11 wrote:
September 25th, 2017, 8:42 am
Also and i'm pretty sure I know the answer is no to this as it's not a foliar herbicide, but just to be sure, no surfactant mixed into dimension/prodiamine correct?
That's correct -- no surfactant would be used when making an application of a product intended to get into the soil.

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Re: What next for pre-m application for reno

Post by ken-n-nancy » September 25th, 2017, 9:35 am

ken-n-nancy wrote:
September 25th, 2017, 9:13 am
I think I've seen Andy post that he adds "1 glug" of surfactant for each gallon of water.
I just used search to make sure I got the amount in Andy's recommendation correct.

I figured I better fix my mistake, it's not "1 glug per gallon" but is actually "2.3 glugs per refill of the backpack sprayer."

;)

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Re: What next for pre-m application for reno

Post by andy10917 » September 25th, 2017, 9:39 am

Get it right, Ace!!

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Re: What next for pre-m application for reno

Post by SNOWBOB11 » September 25th, 2017, 2:42 pm

Thanks for the reply's greenrebellion, ken-n-nancy. Yes k-n-n, I mean 1 gallon of water mixed with .55 tsp of tenacity. I'm using southern AG surfactant and the label says.

Use at the rate of:
1 - 2 pints per 100 gallons of spray
(1 teaspoonful per gallon).

For Round-up, use:
2 quarts per 100 gallons of spray
(1 Tablespoonful per gallon).

For MSMA herbicides, use:
1 - 2 quarts per 100 gallons of spray
(1 Tablespoonful per gallon).

What is considered a MSMA herbicide? Would this include tenacity? It's the difference between 1 teaspoon and 1 tablespoon. Sorry for all the questions, and I realize it probably wont make a huge difference but there is a definite difference between 1 teaspoonful and 1 Tablespoonful. Again thanks for the help.

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Re: What next for pre-m application for reno

Post by ken-n-nancy » September 25th, 2017, 4:31 pm

SNOWBOB11 wrote:
September 25th, 2017, 2:42 pm
What is considered a MSMA herbicide? Would this include tenacity?
A MSMA herbicide is one that contains Monosodium Methanearsonate (MSMA). MSMA used to be a relatively common active ingredient in selective herbicides for lawns.

MSMA products are no longer labeled for residential use, as of September 2009. In other words, any product you now buy for residential use will NOT contain MSMA.

Tenacity does not contain MSMA.

Given what you have quoted on the label, personally I would use that surfactant at the rate of 1 teaspoonful per gallon unless applying glyphosate, which seems to have an indicated rate of 1 tablespoonful per gallon.

The surfactant probably won't hurt your lawn either way, but your surfactant will last longer if you use it at the 1 teaspoonful rate.

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Re: What next for pre-m application for reno

Post by SNOWBOB11 » September 25th, 2017, 7:33 pm

Thank you for the detailed answer ken-n-nancy. 1 tsp per gallon it will be.

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