Overseed Perennial Ryegrass With Fescue

Kentucky bluegrass, Fescue, Rye and Bent, etc
rubes1520
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Overseed Perennial Ryegrass With Fescue

Post by rubes1520 » July 26th, 2021, 9:22 am

Would it be a good plan to overseed a perennial ryegrass lawn with a fescue blend? I would like to avoid killing my lawn and instead overseed with fescue.

My yard gets full sun during the summer months and my PRG lawn takes a beating, going dormant pretty quick. I have a patch of TTTF close to my property line with my neighbor who doesn't care much for his lawn, but the patch on my end gets the same maintenance as my PRG and it's much greener, almost bluish green compared to my weak PRG. The only issue is that the TTTF he has is a much wider blade.

I'm looking for suggestions on a fescue type blend that could match well with PRG. Or worst case, despite the mismatch, I could go with a wider blade TTTF and hope it eventually takes over PRG? Thanks!

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Re: Overseed Perennial Ryegrass With Fescue

Post by turf_toes » July 26th, 2021, 10:01 am

A vendor once told me that the more TTTF is cultivated to look like KBG, the more it starts to act like it. (I was doing research for a friend who wanted a TTTF lawn)

That was his way of saying that the dormancy resistance of those Thin-bladed Tall Fescue cultivars is reduced compared with the wide-bladed Tall Fescues.

(Note there is a difference between dormancy resistance and drought resistance. Tall Fescues tend to fight off dormancy well. But it tends to do less well in an extended drought. (Once it goes dormant, it tends to struggle to survive))

At that point, he suggested if the KBG look is what you are after, grow KBG.

If the dormancy resistance of Tall Fescue is what you are after, grow a wider-bladed Tall Fescue.

Take that for whatever it is worth.

One more thing. most Tall Fescue, like Rye is a clump grass - it doesn’t spread much. It won’t take over unless you annually overseed it. Even at that, it will take years.

I’m sure someone will chime in here with claims about spreading Tall Fescue. I’d suggest that you don’t believe the hype.

I’ve had two friends grow it. The results were underwhelming.

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Re: Overseed Perennial Ryegrass With Fescue

Post by bpgreen » July 27th, 2021, 1:23 am

Doesn't perennial rye also inhibit germination of other grasses?

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Re: Overseed Perennial Ryegrass With Fescue

Post by Green » July 27th, 2021, 2:28 am

If you truly need to overseed, by all means you can use TTTF. Perennial Ryegrass and Tall Fescue are closely related and will behave well together, even though some varieties of each may look very different from one another (some Tall Fescue is very coarse, and some Perennial Ryegrass is very fine...they both started out as coarse grasses originally, but Ryegrass has been undergoing breeding improvements for a longer time period).

I tend to think of Tall Fescue as Ryegrass on steroids. It might not always look as refined, but the drought avoidance and the drought tolerance are both better (but the drought tolerance even of Tall Fescue is not as good as that of KBG).

As far as the spreading claims of both PR and TF, both are very limited. Neither will fill in substantial dead spots in a home lawn situation, but both are easy to reseed with. Small holes the size of a golf ball on the other hand will often fill in on their own with either species or a mix, but that's about as far as it goes in any sort of timely fashion...you'll be waiting forever with larger spots...like my neighbor whose Ryegrass hellstrip reseed mostly died because it didnt get enough water during germination. He now has several more clumps than he had before the overseed because some seed took, but he's going to be waiting years if he doesn't seed again (he did that once...it literally took about 5 years to fill in an area a foot or so across).

The inhibition from allelopathy of Ryegrass shouldn't have much affect on Tall Fescue seed; it has good seedling vigor and can generally overcome some competition.

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Re: Overseed Perennial Ryegrass With Fescue

Post by rubes1520 » July 27th, 2021, 8:46 am

Thanks for your input everyone. I'm not too concerned with TTTF not being able to spread much, I'm just very interested in its ability to withstand heat and drought. Don't get me wrong, I still plan to irrigate, but with PRG I constantly feel like I'm always chasing it during the summer months to prevent it from going dormant.

I'm currently looking at 2 blends...Super Turf I LS Tall Fescue Blend from United Seeds or Jonathan Green's Black Beauty.


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Re: Overseed Perennial Ryegrass With Fescue

Post by YEM » July 27th, 2021, 10:17 am

rubes1520 wrote:
July 27th, 2021, 8:46 am
I'm currently looking at 2 blends...Super Turf I LS Tall Fescue Blend from United Seeds or Jonathan Green's Black Beauty.
I’d probably lean towards the United Seeds option since their stuff usually has 0% weed and 0% other crop. I’m sure you could call/email to confirm.

The bag of JG Black Beauty Ultra I picked up in a pinch this spring 0.02% weed seed and 0.07% other crop. It looks great so far and germinated incredibly quickly, but I have tons of weeds (likely due to the new topsoil and late spring seeding, but I can work with it). The United Seeds KBG mix I have just germinates too slowly for what I needed in this situation.

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Re: Overseed Perennial Ryegrass With Fescue

Post by Green » July 27th, 2021, 11:46 am

The United Seeds blends also cost slightly less even after tax and shipping.

Some JG seed is marked as low as 0.2/0.4. Not sure how much of that is to protect themselves versus likely contaminant. Mass market seed has to be careful and always indicate at least 0.01 weed just in case, so they don't get accused of not having pure seed. But lots can still vary and have less weed than marked.

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Re: Overseed Perennial Ryegrass With Fescue

Post by turf_toes » July 27th, 2021, 12:48 pm

Green wrote:
July 27th, 2021, 11:46 am
The United Seeds blends also cost slightly less even after tax and shipping.

Some JG seed is marked as low as 0.2/0.4. Not sure how much of that is to protect themselves versus likely contaminant. Mass market seed has to be careful and always indicate at least 0.01 weed just in case, so they don't get accused of not having pure seed. But lots can still vary and have less weed than marked.
Or, it may have just what the label claims.

Do the math. 0.4 percent weed or other crop can result in many weeds per square foot.

If the OP doesn’t care if he is adding to his weed pressure, well off they go.

If he or she does care, they want Gold Tag seed. At the very least, go with 0 percent weed or other crop.

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Re: Overseed Perennial Ryegrass With Fescue

Post by Green » July 28th, 2021, 3:40 pm

Sorry, I meant 0.02%, not 0.2.

I know that Scotts marks all their coated seed 0.01% weed to cover themselves.

But I think everybody's various points here still stand.

Go for United Seeds...they are great.

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Re: Overseed Perennial Ryegrass With Fescue

Post by rubes1520 » July 29th, 2021, 10:21 am

Thank you all for your help!

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Re: Overseed Perennial Ryegrass With Fescue

Post by Brian M » July 29th, 2021, 7:00 pm

I used JG Black beauty ultra for an over seed last year and am not happy with it. It did look pretty good in spring, however not so happy with it now. The amount of seed stalks that came up is crazy. They are still there but yellow/brown color. They are a real eye soar. Second I got hit with a nasty fungus this year. Oddly enough, only where the JG grass is. In short I am planning to either overseed with elite tttf, or Reno with kbg.

Good luck

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Re: Overseed Perennial Ryegrass With Fescue

Post by rubes1520 » July 30th, 2021, 9:19 am

Brian M wrote:
July 29th, 2021, 7:00 pm
I used JG Black beauty ultra for an over seed last year and am not happy with it. It did look pretty good in spring, however not so happy with it now. The amount of seed stalks that came up is crazy. They are still there but yellow/brown color. They are a real eye soar. Second I got hit with a nasty fungus this year. Oddly enough, only where the JG grass is. In short I am planning to either overseed with elite tttf, or Reno with kbg.

Good luck
Those seed stalks could be the PRG grass in that blend. My lawn is PRG now and it gets stalky around mid-June to mid-July and then it goes away. It's too bad for its low heat tolerance because it's a beautiful grass outside of summer (unless you want to break the bank watering). It's unfortunate because summer is the time you want your grass to look good as much as possible. I'm hoping the Tall Fescue grass will help keep things green during the hotter months.

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Re: Overseed Perennial Ryegrass With Fescue

Post by pristinegreen75 » July 30th, 2021, 11:49 am

Brian M wrote:
July 29th, 2021, 7:00 pm
I used JG Black beauty ultra for an over seed last year and am not happy with it. It did look pretty good in spring, however not so happy with it now. The amount of seed stalks that came up is crazy. They are still there but yellow/brown color. They are a real eye soar. Second I got hit with a nasty fungus this year. Oddly enough, only where the JG grass is. In short I am planning to either overseed with elite tttf, or Reno with kbg.

Good luck
Just a side note, I have a northern mix front lawn and over seeded some thin spots wit JG Original Black Beauty (straight TTTF) this spring and very happy with the way it turned out. I knew I was taking a chance with a spring planting. All the rain in July really helped a lot. I had a miniscule amount of die off but it is a nice dark green and fine bladed. I'm sure you had a ton of rain in July also. Could be the fungus problem. Maybe the young grass just wasn't mature enough to fight it off. Sometimes this hobby is very frustrating!! Good luck on your reno!

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Re: Overseed Perennial Ryegrass With Fescue

Post by Brian M » July 30th, 2021, 8:01 pm

rubes1520 wrote:
July 30th, 2021, 9:19 am
Brian M wrote:
July 29th, 2021, 7:00 pm
I used JG Black beauty ultra for an over seed last year and am not happy with it. It did look pretty good in spring, however not so happy with it now. The amount of seed stalks that came up is crazy. They are still there but yellow/brown color. They are a real eye soar. Second I got hit with a nasty fungus this year. Oddly enough, only where the JG grass is. In short I am planning to either overseed with elite tttf, or Reno with kbg.

Good luck
Those seed stalks could be the PRG grass in that blend. My lawn is PRG now and it gets stalky around mid-June to mid-July and then it goes away. It's too bad for its low heat tolerance because it's a beautiful grass outside of summer (unless you want to break the bank watering). It's unfortunate because summer is the time you want your grass to look good as much as possible. I'm hoping the Tall Fescue grass will help keep things green during the hotter months.

Yea, assumed stalks were the prg.. I will give it time, and maybe my opinion will change next year, but the point I was trying to make is that I wish I had went with an “elite” blend. Maybe it would have been different, maybe not.. but you go through all that work, you might as well spend the extra $200 for a plant that should last many years, ya know.

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Re: Overseed Perennial Ryegrass With Fescue

Post by Bales9er » July 31st, 2021, 8:09 am

Not to hijack your thread here but I also have PRG that I'm tired of chasing (watering and winter kill are my issues). I'm planning a TTTF overseed as well but I'm interested to hear if anyone has had issues in the northeast with TTTF and its cold hardiness. At this point that's my main concern.

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Re: Overseed Perennial Ryegrass With Fescue

Post by northeastlawn » July 31st, 2021, 10:30 am

[quote="Brian M" post_id=348576 time=1627599655 user_id=10076]
I used JG Black beauty ultra for an over seed last year and am not happy with it. It did look pretty good in spring, however not so happy with it now. The amount of seed stalks that came up is crazy. They are still there but yellow/brown color. They are a real eye soar. Second I got hit with a nasty fungus this year. Oddly enough, only where the JG grass is. In short I am planning to either overseed with elite tttf, or Reno with kbg.
[/quote]

I might be late to the party on this, but I have KBG, and the lawn looks terrible until mid June because of seed stalks. Im talking KBG stalks, not po-a ones. So I guess it's hard to get something that doesn't have any seed stalks at all if your taking care of it properly.

I would never get rid of my KBG, but the summer heat tolerance has really peaked my interest in TTTF. Someone made an excellent pint about wanting to have a lawn that looks good in the summer.

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Re: Overseed Perennial Ryegrass With Fescue

Post by umbo514 » July 31st, 2021, 12:29 pm

I was always under the impression overseeding anything into a pure PRG lawn was extremely difficult, and even if successful, overtime the PRG won out. Has anyone successfully overseeded tttf into ttpr? I myself would be interested about the same attributes tttf would bring to the mix.

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Re: Overseed Perennial Ryegrass With Fescue

Post by turf_toes » July 31st, 2021, 1:41 pm

northeastlawn wrote:
July 31st, 2021, 10:30 am
Brian M wrote:
July 29th, 2021, 7:00 pm
I used JG Black beauty ultra for an over seed last year and am not happy with it. It did look pretty good in spring, however not so happy with it now. The amount of seed stalks that came up is crazy. They are still there but yellow/brown color. They are a real eye soar. Second I got hit with a nasty fungus this year. Oddly enough, only where the JG grass is. In short I am planning to either overseed with elite tttf, or Reno with kbg.
I might be late to the party on this, but I have KBG, and the lawn looks terrible until mid June because of seed stalks. Im talking KBG stalks, not po-a ones. So I guess it's hard to get something that doesn't have any seed stalks at all if your taking care of it properly.

I would never get rid of my KBG, but the summer heat tolerance has really peaked my interest in TTTF. Someone made an excellent pint about wanting to have a lawn that looks good in the summer.
That hasn’t been my experience at all with KBG.

Yes. It gets seedheads. That’s a thing for a couple of weeks. It eventually goes away.

I suggest cutting lower before and during the time when KBG goes to seed. Then raise your deck after that time.

Also the stalkiness you are discussing looks nothing like the Stalkiness of Rye Grass (it isn’t nearly as bad).

What you are seeing is the dead seed head and it tends to be very thin.

Rye stalkiness is very think stemmed in comparison (it’s like comparing a thread with a thin soda straw). It’s also generally not related to seeding.

That said, Rye stalkiness is normally worse in lawns where the caretaker goes long periods between mowing.

What happens in poorly managed lawns is the grass grows so long that when it gets cut, the part of the plant that gets cut isn’t the plant leaf, it’s the plant stalk.

That then turns brown and starts to look really bad.

If you properly care for Rye grass and cut it at least once per week (at least) during its growth flush, you’ll see a lot fewer problems with it.

There is no miracle grass that looks good without proper and regular maintenance.

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Re: Overseed Perennial Ryegrass With Fescue

Post by Green » July 31st, 2021, 2:15 pm

Yes. I have overseeded into Ryegrass. You won't displace what's there...but you will add a little bit of your new seed species if you do it well. Over the long term, that little bit of grass can fill out if some of the PR dies out from climate extremes.

If it's already thick, forget it. There's little reason to overseed in that case, anyway.

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Re: Overseed Perennial Ryegrass With Fescue

Post by MorpheusPA » July 31st, 2021, 4:10 pm

turf_toes wrote:
July 31st, 2021, 1:41 pm
That hasn’t been my experience at all with KBG.
Yes. It gets seedheads. That’s a thing for a couple of weeks. It eventually goes away.
I suggest cutting lower before and during the time when KBG goes to seed. Then raise your deck after that time.
I don't even bother with that. Seeding is inconsistent. This year, all of my lawn did. Most years, it's spotty. I usually just keep mowing at 3.5". One doesn't even see the stalks, as far as I notice, and I'm a complete stickler on color changes and texture.
There is no miracle grass that looks good without proper and regular maintenance.
Ain't that the truth. I took my eyes off mine for about 2 weeks this summer and a lack of rain sent a patch dormant. It looks terrible right now. It'll come back, but...

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