Question: Grass-in-a-cup for patching

[andy10917]

Here's a question I was thinking about -- maybe it's too esoteric, but still...

There have been a few discussions about growing KBG in a cup for patching bare spots. My thought is that as the grass begins to spread after being in the bare spot, wouldn't the more-aggressive cultivars spread much faster and dominate the former bare spot?

[clay&crabgrass]

I have some bare spots in my TTTF renovation. reseeded them a few times, nothing. if I remember correctly, those places were kind of thin before I started. what are the possible causes of bare spots? dig up the soil and replace?

[bpgreen]

C&C--I think your question is different enough from Andy's that it should be a separate thread so the answers here don't get hard to follow with multiple discussions going on (which tends to happen anyway).

Andy--I think that's a good question. In fact, I've sometimes wondered about this in a more general sense. What I mean is what happens in a regular lawn setting if you have a more aggressive cultivar blended with less aggressive cultivars? Over time, as some grass dies and the other grass fills in, does the more aggressive grass tend to dominate? If there are factors in play that stop that from happening in the lawn, would those same factors be in play when filling in the bare spots?

[jglongisland]

I guess that is a potential problem but its worked pretty well for me. This time I went with the six inch pots vs. the 4 inch ones. Logically, however, you have the same problem if you just let the grass fill in because the more aggressive cultivars will move into the hole faster. In some respects the pots work better because you can really see the different cultivars coming up at different times (I'm on day 15 and saw some new shoots yesterdays even though the first ones came up at day 6 and most by day 11). By using the pots you know you'll have six inches of your mix in the middle of the hole.

[clay&crabgrass]

growing grass in a pot for transplanting sounds good to me. possibility there for some control. (throwing seed on the soil has always been sort of a crap shoot for me).

sorry about the wandering thread. bare areas are from salt damage, proximity to trees(surface roots) or where a tree had been, grubs, many other possibilities, I guess?

fixing these areas with "homemade sod" and fresh topsoil sounds like a solution I'll try next spring.

[andy10917]

Same here - I have 100 pots that I will use to fill in the bare/thin spots in my renovation. I won't have the "different growth rates for differenet cultivars" problem since I have an "Emblem" monostand, but I thought about it and wondered if the more aggressive ones wouldn't fill in the bare spots more than the slower ones wher a mix of cultivars is used.

Now I just have to figure out where to keep 100 pots of grass in an area with enough light in February...

[Bestlawn]

I guess I don't understand the question because I expect that happens in the lawn (provided it's the same blend and ratio) whether a spot is patched or not. Another thought is this is the reason people add Aggressive Types, being they fill in faster. Yet another thought is this is also the reason Aggressive Types should be less of the blend by weight, so they don't dominate as quickly as they could. These grasses spread rapidly and tiller profusely, so other varieties hardly have a chance against them. Other than volume, the only chance I can think would be those that germinate faster and those that emerge from dormancy sooner (spring greenup). In the end, it's more likely neither of those features account for much. The drawback is the dominant variety gets to express its strengths and weaknesses, while the less aggressive ones don't get to express their strengths. An example is Emblem rates fairly well for shade tolerance but rates poorly for powdery mildew resistance. The problem arises when a variety is included for its superior resistance to PM. The latter is suppressed at doing its job to protect the stand because the former comprises 50% or more of the stand. Of course, the reverse is also true. I think about LawnStriper adding Emblem to Black Beauty blend, which is highly brown patch susceptible and experienced an outbreak. His high ratio at about 40% Emblem will likely serve to help the lawn resist the disease, provided of course that Emblem is highly resistant in his area.

Andy, you already knew all of this, so I don't know what it is I am missing about the question.

[andy10917]

I'll try to frame the question differently. Let's say I have a 12" bare spot. I grow a 4" "cup-of-grass" that is a mix of "Emblem" and "Moonlight", and i then plant the grass from the cup into the middle of the bare spot. Obviously the idea is that the grass from the cup spreads laterally to fill in the bare spot. But because "Emblem" is much more aggressive, won't the lateral spread be much more "Emblem"? It's kind-of theoretical unless there is a major coloration or leaf-width difference, but still - would it happen? Like you said, I think I know the answer but I'm looking for your confirmation that I'm not overlooking something...

[clay&crabgrass]

Let's say you have two 12" bare spots. plant a cup of Emblem in one and a cup of Moonlight in the other. which will fill up quicker? will either expand past the 12" spot and into the surrounds? you'd think the more aggresive spreader would win any contests. guess I'd put my $.25 on the Emblem.

what happens if you plant the cup of grass and it sits there and dies in a week or so?

eh, lot of stuff going on here, wish I understood more..................

[Bestlawn]

It's not theoretical at all but biological. That is what happens and what is going to happen by virtue of classification, which is based on morphological differences. Unfortunately, you can't tell between them, as you say, if their visible features are basically indistinguishable. But there are differences between them that are not visible. Alas, that information is written in their registration applications. Not all are available to the public though, and the info is limited in that it mostly distinguishes a new plant from its parents but not from other plants. The breeders/producers have all the info, and that's how they come to identify and name so many different cultivars. Here are registrations of Bedazzled and NuGlade and there are a lot of others you can read, but the site requires registering to view them all.

Consider also we are comparing "Aggressive Types" with non-"Aggressive" ones, but there are differences in the rates of growth among all of them, in that none grow and reproduce at the same rate. It's just that some are pointedly faster and can, therefore, be classified as "Aggressive." So, something is always going to dominate the stand eventually (remember our previous discussion about shifting?) even though it takes longer than if it were an "Aggressive Type." By the same token, the "Aggressive" ones don't all grow and reproduce at the same rate either.

[MorpheusPA]

Thanks! That explains why I started with roughly 1/3 each of Midnight II, Moonlight, and Bedazzled and why the lawn is slowly shifting toward being Midnight II and Moonlight dominated. I was idly wondering if something was wrong with the Bedazzled (it's visibly extremely healthy), but the dominance is just starting to change a bit.

I did notice that empty spots seemed to be Midnight II dominated by the time they filled in, but figured that just spread faster.

[Seven333]

Morph, how are you able to distinguish between the 3? Color? Growth-rate?

[jglongisland]

Morph,

Can you really tell the difference between them? If so, could post closeups of each and how you distinguish them?

[MorpheusPA]

If it weren't currently pouring, I'd be happy to.

Midnight II is a thin blade and very dark. Moonlight has a wider blade, and is also very dark (I can't tell the difference between the colors except in full sun with my nose in the lawn). Bedazzled is lighter and grows a bit faster.

[Seven333]

This whole topic is very interesting to me...I've often thought about planting a tray of KBG and using it to fill in some bare spots between my fescue. Since I don't really have the ability to irrigate my lawn during the whole germination period I figured this would enable me to get some seedlings ready for transplant. Not sure how the KBG, preferably an aggressive type, would blend with my fescue though.

[andy10917]

I can't tell the difference between the colors except in full sun with my nose in the lawn

If you have your nose in the lawn, don't you get Milorganite on your face? It gives new meaning to "brown-nosing", doesn't it?

[clay&crabgrass]

I'm going to rehab the bare spots in this renovation project with the TTTF seed I'm using. need to work on the soil a lot more. since I'm a newbie to all of this, the mini sod farm idea sounds good, a little more control and ease of working.
maybe some pots of shady mix, pots of KBG for experiments in introducing that to the yard--all sorts of ideas come to mind.

read up on the seeds your interested in trying. sorry, can't find it, but remember seeing a report on aggresive KBG that said up to 80% takeover in 1 season. maybe don't buy a seed called "Godzilla". hehehehehe.

[LawnStriper]

Morph,

Can you really tell the difference between them? If so, could post closeups of each and how you distinguish them?

+1

[Bestlawn]

Yeah, Morph, that's shifting and the reason to maintain diversity by overseeding every 2-3 years.

CC, not sure I understand what you're saying but if I do understand you correctly, let me admonish against it. If you do any filling in bare spots, whether by overseeding or by patching, make it the exact same blend as that of the lawn. You don't want to end up with spotty grass. If you change the mix/blend, then overseed the whole lawn with the new mixture, not just the bare spots.

[MorpheusPA]

A slightly off-topic and perhaps dumb question...overseeding every 2-3 years maintains diversity, but our elite (and well-cared for) lawns are extremely thick. Does any of that new seed take all that well? I can't imagine sprouts finding too many homes in this lawn as there's no space for them.