Clarification needed on Fertilizing/Lawn MaintenanceSchedule

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llO0DQLE
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Clarification needed on Fertilizing/Lawn MaintenanceSchedule

Post by llO0DQLE » August 12th, 2014, 11:26 pm

1. Spring - Fertilize or not? I've read not to fertilize as it encourages top growth instead of root development. The Philes lecture states to fertilize with big first number. If yes, and you use big first number, does that mean you have to use synthetic then?

2. Summer - Just use Milo or organic N?

3. Fall - I live in Canada and we hit freezing temps by Halloween. Top growth probably ceases in mid October. Can I squeeze in two apps? Maybe 1st week of Sept and 1st week of Oct? I read to use synthetic for last app or at least something that is fast release, correct?

4. Lower mowing height in fall or not? We get lots of snow. By lots, I mean lots! Like two years ago, the snow dump in the city didn't fully melt until July/August of the next year. Yeah, that's Canada. Late Fall Lawn Care article states not to because energy will be wasted with repairing the tip. I lowered the cut to about 2-2.5" for last cut last year and got a bit of snow mold in the spring. Very mild though and went away quick with light raking in Spring to stand blades up. I was contemplating of lowering it to 1.5 for last cut. Right now it's at about 4" and I plan to lower it gradually.

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Re: Clarification needed on Fertilizing/Lawn MaintenanceSche

Post by GaryCinChicago » August 13th, 2014, 12:22 am

49th parallel, you're up north!

I seriously feel you must disregard calendar activities that you have read in the past and devise a separate plan for your locale for the future.

First, you should take this and convert to metric for yourself


Image

and then adapt it for yourself.

Yes, you are in the plains and will occasionally get high temps, but does your soil temperatures ever get to those extreme numbers in the chart? (I personally doubt that)
2. Summer - Just use Milo or organic N?

Your summer soil temps are my spring soil temps here in Chicago.
See why the calendar MUST NOT be used?

Philes lecture does not pertain to you up north. You have nothing to worry about due to your cool soil temps. Lay it on!! You pick what to put down with your ideal growing conditions.

Milorganite May, June and July ... SURE!, go ahead. And drop a synthetic in between, somewhere in the middle? Sure, go ahead! - if you see it needs a little more. It won't catch on fire because you are so far north and COOL, compared to the majority of the boards members.

If I were to take a stab at at your fall, I would say things start to change around August 15th, with noticeably cooler nights. This is when you should start (letting nature tell you when, rather than a calendar) with fall fertilizing (synthetic) and following up every 30 days. By October 15th, call it a year before your Halloween freeze. Call that your "winterizer" and put it to bed. But keep in mind, nothing is written in stone. Every year is different. A couple weeks sooner / a couple weeks later each year is possible and most often, common.
Lower mowing height in fall or not?
I'm from that school. Once the heat passes and the nights start to cool, my mower lowers. I see nothing wrong with a short last cut, but have experienced nothing but bad with a tall cut, regardless of the time of year. I live in a heavy populated area with many structures. Air movement is not easily available to my turf so tall grass harbors pathogens for me here.

It's been a cool summer for me so far. I have yet to raise the mower above 7 CM this year. Soon, 6 CM will be used and then 4 CM for final cut(s). Haven't had snow mold damage in may years and powdery mildew in spring has vastly decreased. Just my experience .... here.

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Re: Clarification needed on Fertilizing/Lawn MaintenanceSche

Post by llO0DQLE » August 13th, 2014, 1:56 am

GaryCinChicago wrote:49th parallel, you're up north!

I seriously feel you must disregard calendar activities that you have read in the past and devise a separate plan for your locale for the future.

First, you should take this and convert to metric for yourself


Image

and then adapt it for yourself.

Yes, you are in the plains and will occasionally get high temps, but does your soil temperatures ever get to those extreme numbers in the chart? (I personally doubt that)
Wow, thanks for that, that's very informative! I have never tested soil temps. Do I just use a gardening or cooking thermometer? I got one that I used for my compost but I can't remember if I got it from the gardening section or the kitchen section. I don't know if there's a difference.

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Re: Clarification needed on Fertilizing/Lawn MaintenanceSche

Post by llO0DQLE » August 13th, 2014, 2:04 am

GaryCinChicago wrote:Milorganite May, June and July ... SURE!, go ahead. And drop a synthetic in between, somewhere in the middle? Sure, go ahead! - if you see it needs a little more. It won't catch on fire because you are so far north and COOL, compared to the majority of the boards members.

If I were to take a stab at at your fall, I would say things start to change around August 15th, with noticeably cooler nights. This is when you should start (letting nature tell you when, rather than a calendar) with fall fertilizing (synthetic) and following up every 30 days. By October 15th, call it a year before your Halloween freeze. Call that your "winterizer" and put it to bed. But keep in mind, nothing is written in stone. Every year is different. A couple weeks sooner / a couple weeks later each year is possible and most often, common.
Maybe that's why I didn't really see any damage with the insane amounts of Milo I dropped the past couple months. For some reason, I thought I read that 1 bag covers 250 sq feet. My back lawn is about 250 sq feet and the front is about 200 sq ft with a tree and some shrubs around it in the middle. I've been dropping 1 bag in the back and 1 bag in the front every two weeks for for the last 6 weeks. lol It's my first time using Milo I was so excited when I found it in Rona since I keep reading about it here at ATY. It's $16 a bag here though, which is not too bad with my tiny lawn. Your assessment of our weather conditions is quite accurate. Have you ever been up this far north?

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Re: Clarification needed on Fertilizing/Lawn MaintenanceSche

Post by llO0DQLE » August 13th, 2014, 2:09 am

GaryCinChicago wrote: I have yet to raise the mower above 7 CM this year. Soon, 6 CM will be used and then 4 CM for final cut(s).
What's that in inches? lol Officially, we use metric, but in certain applications it's just too impractical and stupid. Lbs is easier to sue for body weight and feet and inches much easier for height than 100s of cms..


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Re: Clarification needed on Fertilizing/Lawn MaintenanceSche

Post by JustAGuy » August 13th, 2014, 6:58 am

llO0DQLE wrote:<snip>I thought I read that 1 bag covers 250 sq feet. My back lawn is about 250 sq feet and the front is about 200 sq ft with a tree and some shrubs around it in the middle. I've been dropping 1 bag in the back and 1 bag in the front every two weeks for for the last 6 weeks.<snip>
At bag rate for Milo (36 lbs) it covers 2500 sq feet. If I read correctly, you are dropping 10X bag rate :) , I think that beats Andy.

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Re: Clarification needed on Fertilizing/Lawn MaintenanceSche

Post by ken-n-nancy » August 13th, 2014, 8:57 am

GaryCinChicago wrote:Image
Thanks so much for the excellent reference on soil temperatures! I'm going to print that out and keep it with my lawn planning stuff! (FYI, I also found a higher resolution version.)

For tracking local soil temperatures, somebody else on this forum (I don't recall who) posted a link to soil temperature maps that show current temperatures and a 5-day soil temperature forecast. I have found these to be helpful, although they don't seem like they'll help llO0DQLE a whole lot, as they seem to cut off around Calgary.

However, a google search for alberta "soil temperature" map generates some likely hits -- seems like there are some agricultural soil temperature monitoring stations in Edmonton.

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Re: Clarification needed on Fertilizing/Lawn MaintenanceSche

Post by gwlbe » August 13th, 2014, 9:41 am

What's that in inches? lol Officially, we use metric, but in certain applications it's just too impractical and stupid. Lbs is easier to sue for body weight and feet and inches much easier for height than 100s of cms.
I have Canadian friends that come down to buy from Home Depot and Lowes. I asked them what a 2x4 is called, they respond 2x4.

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Re: Clarification needed on Fertilizing/Lawn MaintenanceSche

Post by GaryCinChicago » August 13th, 2014, 7:22 pm

llO0DQLE wrote:
GaryCinChicago wrote: I have yet to raise the mower above 7 CM this year. Soon, 6 CM will be used and then 4 CM for final cut(s).
What's that in inches? lol
:rotfl:

2.75", 2.25" and 1.75"
Your assessment of our weather conditions is quite accurate. Have you ever been up this far north?
No, but I would like to.
Far north that I have been is Red Lake Ontario, 51st parallel.

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Re: Clarification needed on Fertilizing/Lawn MaintenanceSche

Post by GaryCinChicago » August 13th, 2014, 7:25 pm

ken-n-nancy wrote: Thanks so much for the excellent reference on soil temperatures!
You are welcome ken-n-nancy.

Here is a little visual to accompany it that you may like too.



Image

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Re: Clarification needed on Fertilizing/Lawn MaintenanceSche

Post by llO0DQLE » August 13th, 2014, 11:57 pm

GaryCinChicago wrote:
llO0DQLE wrote:
GaryCinChicago wrote: I have yet to raise the mower above 7 CM this year. Soon, 6 CM will be used and then 4 CM for final cut(s).
What's that in inches? lol
:rotfl:

2.75", 2.25" and 1.75"
lol I know.. just saying that nobody really uses cms here..

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Re: Clarification needed on Fertilizing/Lawn MaintenanceSche

Post by llO0DQLE » August 14th, 2014, 12:01 am

Btw Gary, what are your thoughts on spring time fertilizing? I'm asking about the school of thought of not fertilizing because it encourages shoot growth instead of root growth.

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Re: Clarification needed on Fertilizing/Lawn MaintenanceSche

Post by GaryCinChicago » August 15th, 2014, 12:54 am

llO0DQLE wrote:Btw Gary, what are your thoughts on spring time fertilizing? I'm asking about the school of thought of not fertilizing because it encourages shoot growth instead of root growth.
I'm a fan of spring fertilizing because I drop 1Lb urea around late November +/-. My spring green up is fabulous because that urea was stored as carbohydrates in the soil, but within a several weeks, all available N resources are exhausted. That's here, in Chicago USA.

What *YOU* read here is not written in stone for you, because of your location. You must adapt for a shorter and cooler growing season.

Understand first that root growth is predominately soil temperature dependent, first and foremost, rather than hampered by nitrogen applications. Given favorable soil temps, roots are going to grow. It's just nature.

re: spring fertilizing and hampering root growth - I personally feel that it does not pertain to you. You are so far north and so much cooler than 99.9% of members here that you probably have root growth well into July, and maybe even later.

In fact, look at that picture I posted above, where the roots recede during the summer stress period. I have to wonder if you ever experience that? I have to wonder if your spring, summer and fall does not promote root growth continually, due to favorable cool soil temps.

If I were you, during your spring, once the spring growth flush starts, and after you have mowed 3 times (actual mowings, when 3 to 4 days after the last mow, another mow is needed) I would apply a slow release "coated nitrogen" fert without any trepidation. This would not give you an instant growth flush, but would last about 60 - 75 days due to the slow release coating.

Use the search feature here on the forum, as there are 100's of threads on the types of nitrogen and slow release types and their percentages. This is all you need to know, not brand names - because YMMV with brands in Canada. Bottom line, turn the bag over and read the label - and who cares what the front of the bag (advertisement) says.

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Re: Clarification needed on Fertilizing/Lawn MaintenanceSche

Post by Lawngone » August 15th, 2014, 1:53 pm

GaryCinChicago wrote:49th parallel, you're up north!

First, you should take this and convert to metric for yourself.... Nothing to convert really. We are dual language with temperatures up here.


Image

and then adapt it for yourself.

Yes, you are in the plains and will occasionally get high temps, but does your soil temperatures ever get to those extreme numbers in the chart? (I personally doubt that).

...Gary, soil temperatures get very low here. Our frostline is well below 4 feet in Alberta. In Edmonton, which is quite far north, the frost line can get to 6 feet and lower. So our soil freezes extremely hard, and temperatures get extremely low. 20F at the 4 inch level is a given.




Milorganite May, June and July ... SURE!, go ahead. And drop a synthetic in between, somewhere in the middle? Sure, go ahead! - if you see it needs a little more. It won't catch on fire because you are so far north and COOL, compared to the majority of the boards members.

...Not sure what you mean by COOL and "catch on fire" here. Our temperatures get easily into 90s to 100F in June, July and Aug. We have been in mid 90s this week, and low 90s next. I agree that putting synth on when it needs it is fine. I do it all the time, and with the short season, if you didn't put it on, you might never put it on ;) But the grass here gets N burn just as easily here, if that is what you are meaning.
Lower mowing height in fall or not?
I'm from that school. Once the heat passes and the nights start to cool, my mower lowers. I see nothing wrong with a short last cut, but have experienced nothing but bad with a tall cut, regardless of the time of year. I live in a heavy populated area with many structures. Air movement is not easily available to my turf so tall grass harbors pathogens for me here.

...Snow mold is often a major problem here. Especially since the snow tends to sit in snowbanks and piles well into April in a lot of regions. Cutting it short, like you said, seems to help.

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Re: Clarification needed on Fertilizing/Lawn MaintenanceSche

Post by llO0DQLE » August 15th, 2014, 3:38 pm

GaryCinChicago wrote:In fact, look at that picture I posted above, where the roots recede during the summer stress period. I have to wonder if you ever experience that? I have to wonder if your spring, summer and fall does not promote root growth continually, due to favorable cool soil temps.

If I were you, during your spring, once the spring growth flush starts, and after you have mowed 3 times (actual mowings, when 3 to 4 days after the last mow, another mow is needed) I would apply a slow release "coated nitrogen" fert without any trepidation. This would not give you an instant growth flush, but would last about 60 - 75 days due to the slow release coating.

Use the search feature here on the forum, as there are 100's of threads on the types of nitrogen and slow release types and their percentages. This is all you need to know, not brand names - because YMMV with brands in Canada. Bottom line, turn the bag over and read the label - and who cares what the front of the bag (advertisement) says.
Thanks Gary! I really appreciate you taking the time to explain things and put it into perspective for my specific situation. It helps me understand things better and adapt my lawn program. I don't know about the roots receding, I haven't tried to dig and check it out. However, it doesn't get too hot in the summer, hottest days are about 82 F and cools at night to 62 F in the middle of summer, which would be mid June to mid August, usually. Looking back at my pics, (you can check out my Flickr photostream to see how the lawn progressed last year as I have dates on the pics), greenup didn't happen until about mid May I think.

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Re: Clarification needed on Fertilizing/Lawn MaintenanceSche

Post by Lawngone » August 15th, 2014, 5:36 pm

GaryCinChicago wrote:
llO0DQLE wrote:

re: spring fertilizing and hampering root growth - I personally feel that it does not pertain to you. You are so far north and so much cooler than 99.9% of members here that you probably have root growth well into July, and maybe even later.

...this is indeed the case. However, our KBG does attempt to go dormant and will seed out during July and August, and sometimes late June.

In fact, look at that picture I posted above, where the roots recede during the summer stress period. I have to wonder if you ever experience that? I have to wonder if your spring, summer and fall does not promote root growth continually, due to favorable cool soil temps.

...My soil temperature here is in the mid to high 70sF. During July and August when it is extremely hot, it (the first 4 inches) is above that. Our roots do stop growing to some degree during the summer, but nothing like they would in warmer climes.

It seems we are already preparing for the fall and our streets just seemed to have the street sweepers go by, cleaning up winter sand and gravel. Grr.

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