Fall Nitrogen Regimens

[Green]

I don't understand the pause. Here in central Virginia the first frost is usually mid October. But growth continues until usually the first part of December. That's almost 1.5 - 2 months of growth after frost, not a 3-4 week slowing down.

Similar here in South-central CT. My average first frost date is roughly October 14th-18th. The grass stops growing for all intents and purposes by the first or second week of December most years. (Actually, it doesn't even totally stop by that point every year, but for winterizing intent, it is stopped by then). In any case, that's 6-8 weeks. It's not just a Central Virginia thing! I've talked with Andy about this many times, and my conclusion is that the pause, as written, is just a little longer in some places than others. I've been trying to come with a better estimate of the beginning of the pause for my area than first frost, but I haven't been able to yet.

[gwlbe]

Ground temp hanging around 40. I’ll drop the final urea app this weekend. 15 degrees as I type.

[rucraz2]

Every time I read another person asking about growth slowing down and Andy's response I think of this joke. Just wanted to help the cause for Andy. If you want to delete it for getting off topic I apologize in advance. Just thought I would share.

A lawyer runs a stop sign and gets pulled over by a sheriff's deputy. Of course he thinks he is smarter than the deputy because he's big shot lawyer from New York and is certain that he has a better education then any cop from West Virginia. He decides to prove this to himself and have some fun at the deputy's expense.

The deputy says, "License and registration, please." "What for?" asks the lawyer. The deputy says, "You didn't come to a complete stop at the stop sign." Then the lawyer says, "I slowed down, and no one was coming." "You still didn't come to a complete stop" says the deputy, "License and registration, please." The lawyer says, "What's the difference?" "The difference is you have to come to complete stop, that's the law. License and registration, please!" the Deputy repeats impatiently..

The lawyer says, "If you can show me the legal difference between slow down and stop, I'll give you my license and registration; and you give me the ticket. If not, you let me go and don't give me the ticket." "That sounds fair. Please exit your vehicle, sir," the deputy says.

At this point, the deputy takes out his nightstick and without warning starts beating the snot out of the lawyer and says, "Do you want me to stop... or just slow down?"

[RockinMyLawn]

Ground temp hanging around 40. I’ll drop the final urea app this weekend. 15 degrees as I type.

Using rain or some other method to water it in?

[ken-n-nancy]

Every time I read another person asking about growth slowing down and Andy's response I think of this joke. ...

Me too. I've come close to posting a similar variant a few times but have never actually done so. Thanks for posting it!

[mitten]

Just in case people are interested in Urea pricing... the going rate at two different stores in my area is $24 for a 50lb bag. I purchased from SiteOne. It came in a Lesco branded white plastic bag. They had 5 bags left as of last week.

[PW405]

Planning to drop final app & water today. High is going to be 45° today, however single digit temps forecast in the next 72 hours. Will having extra moisture in the soil (which is almost certainly going to freeze) cause any ill effects on the grass? (Specifically concerned about TTTF).

[andy10917]

If moisture harmed TTTF, it would have become extinct a million years ago (round numbers).

Extended single digits is going to mean that very little Nitrogen is going to get picked up and stored, however.

[PW405]

If moisture harmed TTTF, it would have become extinct a million years ago (round numbers).

Extended single digits is going to mean that very little Nitrogen is going to get picked up and stored, however.

OK good deal, I figured that was the case. I actually decided to not drop my final winterizing urea app yesterday. I mowed for the first time in 9 days and top growth still occurring. Barely, but I could still tell where I had/hadn't mowed. Daily highs return to above freezing by Wednesday, so hopefully I'll have an opportunity to drop & water next weekend. (I'm pursing the aggressive regimen, last weekly urea app was 11/17.)

[Jackson]

Im in the Chicago area and we had a nice warmup in the 60's this week, there is no growth but the lawn appears much greener than neighbors. The 10day / avg temps show that the daytime temps will not drop below freezing and nighttime freezing will only happen for a couple of weeks.

Can I start the spring prep, raking etc. or am I jumping the gun?

[Green]

Andy, regarding the Milo in August...

Have you put it down on semi dormant grass if it's hot and/or dry and stress is bad? I'm always hesitant. What's your yard stick for ascertaining if it's appropriate yet? Do you wait for cooler temps or a certain natural decline of Summer dormancy first?

[andy10917]

Here's my thinking:

I want 7 weeks of 1 lb/K Nitrogen applications, and my average first frost date is 10/17. Work it backward - I either have to start in the very beginning of September or I have to give up apps. I make sure that the lawn gets plenty of water in early August and that the 8/15 Milorganite app wakes the lawn slowly. It always seems to work. Then I'm not lurching the lawn into gear.

I'm not feeling good about "the natural decline of dormancy" - this is the most important time of the year for Nitrogen apps. I don't want to miss a couple of apps, and I don't think a slow startup is harmful. I've never had a bad issue with anything abrupt, and I feel my way is better than a crash-into-gear Urea app with no lead-up in September.

[Green]

Thanks for the perspective. I really hadn't considered that way of using N in August, but I would like to try it rather than waiting until early September and then feeling like I missed out. I will see what I can do about the semi dormant areas now.

That said, I have some extremely dormant areas that this won't work on...however, the grass type in those areas precludes heavy N anyway (fine fescue).

[andy10917]

That's the biggest after-season statement I hear every year: "I wish I had started earlier".

[Green]

That's the biggest after-season statement I hear every year: "I wish I had started earlier".

All right. I can see why. I will try to get the minor to moderate dormancy under better control over the next week so, so the grass can start to utilize some organic N in about a week or two. This will take more watering, etc.

[andy10917]

Yes, it will - but I honestly believe it is the best option.

[greenrebellion]

I like the paragraph you added at the end in your updated first post. I only have one season of data, but my top growth stopped 7-8 weeks after my first frost date. This could be due to temperature moderation from me living just East of Lake Michigan. I'll measure it again this year and then adjust when I should stop Urea in future years based on a cumulative average.

[rydaddy]

I like the paragraph you added at the end in your updated first post. I only have one season of data, but my top growth stopped 7-8 weeks after my first frost date. This could be due to temperature moderation from me living just East of Lake Michigan. I'll measure it again this year and then adjust when I should stop Urea in future years based on a cumulative average.

Sorry, off topic. GreenReBellion. I'm due south of you in Kalamazoo. And I work another 9 miles due east of my house. I fully agree, and smarter people than me have proven that Lake Affect (from lake Michigan) plays with our weather. Especially in winter - It can be vastly different in the 9 miles between home and work. I never gave it a thought that it might be affecting our first frost date, growth stoppage, etc. I think there is a definite chance it could be.

Rydaddy.

[greenrebellion]

Rydaddy...There is a reason they call it the "Lake Michigan Fruit Belt"!

The challenges I had last year were two fold.
1. I stopped Urea at my first frost date ended up with another 8 weeks of growth, very slow towards the end but still growing. Rust became a complete nightmare. This year I'll be continuing with the Urea past my first frost date and will fine tune when to stop over the coming years.
2. Putting winterizer down was tough as I seemingly went from slow growth to freezing temps / snow cover with very little in between period of no growth. Luckily, I got my winterizer down and watered in and had a few days of nice weather before reaching the point of no return with snow/cold.

[Green]

I like the paragraph you added at the end in your updated first post. I only have one season of data, but my top growth stopped 7-8 weeks after my first frost date. This could be due to temperature moderation from me living just East of Lake Michigan. I'll measure it again this year and then adjust when I should stop Urea in future years based on a cumulative average.

It's actually pretty common to be 6 to 8 weeks, even if you're like 20 miles from the ocean like I am. It may even be that way further from water. The 4 weeks never held for me, over 6 years of tracking.