Fall Nitrogen Regimens

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bpgreen
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Re: Fall Nitrogen Regimens

Post by bpgreen » November 7th, 2017, 11:11 pm

osuturfman wrote:
November 6th, 2017, 11:48 pm
No problem with Green Max, the slow release N in that product will sit there until next year.
Why is that? Is it a product where the slow release portion relies on biological activity?

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Re: Fall Nitrogen Regimens

Post by Green » November 8th, 2017, 2:19 am

I'm not answering for OSU, but my guess is that he was likely referring to the more stable molecules (fractions II and III in the chemical reaction pathway) that are inevitably in the mixture the way Scotts makes their fertilizers, and do indeed require higher temperatures and more time to break down. PSU has a really good pdf reference on this concept.

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Re: Fall Nitrogen Regimens

Post by PSU4ME » November 8th, 2017, 3:43 pm

Has anyone noticed any top growth slowing yet? Using the timing guidelines, we should be coming up on that time. i was planning to put my winterizer down next week but i'm cutting this Friday and need to see if it continues to grow - it has certainly slowed.

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Re: Fall Nitrogen Regimens

Post by ken-n-nancy » November 8th, 2017, 4:23 pm

PSU4ME wrote:
November 8th, 2017, 3:43 pm
Has anyone noticed any top growth slowing yet? Using the timing guidelines, we should be coming up on that time. i was planning to put my winterizer down next week but i'm cutting this Friday and need to see if it continues to grow - it has certainly slowed.
Top growth has definitely slowed for me (in New Hampshire), but also undoubtedly has not stopped. I'm still mowing every 4 days (the leaves continue to fall and need mulching even if the grass had stopped growing), but top growth has slowed from the normal about 1.5" of growth in 4 days to maybe about 0.75" of growth instead.

I do anticipate that the weather over the next 5 days, with sub-freezing temperatures every night and daytime highs all below 50F, with Fri & Sat forecasted for highs just above freezing in the mid-30s will cause significantly more slowdown. I think this weather pattern is forecast for basically all of New England (of course it is warmer in southern New England and cooler in northern New England...)

I would wait for a week of ZERO topgrowth before declaring "the pause" to be over and making a final year-ending fertilizer application. I actually didn't make that last application last year and may not make one this year, either, but I still haven't decided about that.

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Re: Fall Nitrogen Regimens

Post by andy10917 » November 8th, 2017, 6:42 pm

+1. "SLOWED" is not "STOPPED", any more than there are gray areas of "that dog is a little dead" or "that lady is 15% pregnant". Urea during the slowdown may continue to force tender new growth, and avoidance of that is the very reason for "The Pause". I don't know any more ways to say that Lawn Care is a patient person's game, and if you're not patient maybe you should take up X-Box games instead.


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Re: Fall Nitrogen Regimens

Post by Green » November 8th, 2017, 7:05 pm

andy10917 wrote:
November 8th, 2017, 6:42 pm
+1. "SLOWED" is not "STOPPED", any more than there are gray areas of "that dog is a little dead" or "that lady is 15% pregnant". Urea during the slowdown may continue to force tender new growth, and avoidance of that is the very reason for "The Pause".
Andy: It surprises me how WRONG the lawncare companies are with timing sometimes. Not just Chemlawn types (which came next door today, apparently), but mom-and-pop types, too. Some of my neighbors had N put down yesterday by our trusted local company. I know these guys, and we've had lots of discussions over the years.

Now, I haven't seen any ill effects of this (and it's been done almost every year during the pause). But I know it's still not optimal. They told me that there's a large percentage of slow release (at least 35% of the total) in it. So, even if it doesn't push growth and cause problems (which it hasn't seemed to, other years)...how much of that Nitrogen is actually being made available after top growth stops? Probably not enough of it to sufficiently act as a final winterizer. Case in point, those lawns do not green up as early as mine in the Spring...they lag by a couple of weeks.

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Re: Fall Nitrogen Regimens

Post by Methodical » November 8th, 2017, 9:11 pm

Well, I am glad I found this thread (although maybe too late), but I may have violated the 1st post. I replanted my lawn back in late August (around the 28th) along with starter fertilizer. On October 22nd, I put a heavy dose of Milorganite down, so I assume that I can't put down a fast release N fertilizer as a winterizer since I just put down some Milorganite.

The lawn has thickened up and still has some growth as I cut the lawn today (11/8) at 3.5" and I can tell there was some grass removal, so there's still some growth, but it seems like it may be in that "pause" phase.

The 1st post says to slowly lower the cut height of the grass (TTTF, KBG, PR), so at what height should I eventually cut the grass, too? In the past, I cut the grass lower to avoid it getting matted down during snow, but I don't recall at what height.

Thanks for any insight.

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Re: Fall Nitrogen Regimens

Post by andy10917 » November 8th, 2017, 9:32 pm

If you make it 4 weeks after the Milo before the grass completely stops, I see no reason why you couldn't make the last winterizing app with Urea.

As to the final height, that's a preference thing - I go to around 2.5" but my snow load is much heavier than your's in MD.

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Re: Fall Nitrogen Regimens

Post by Green » November 8th, 2017, 9:35 pm

Methodical: See Andy's reply above mine. And, chances are you didn't violate anything in his Fall Nitrogen plan!

Just curious, how much Milorganite and over what size area did you apply it? Heavy application to one person is light to another.

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Re: Fall Nitrogen Regimens

Post by osuturfman » November 8th, 2017, 9:46 pm

[quote=bpgreen post_id=318672 time=1510110719 user_id=66]
[quote=osuturfman post_id=318650 time=1510026490 user_id=2472]
No problem with Green Max, the slow release N in that product will sit there until next year.
[/quote]

Why is that? Is it a product where the slow release portion relies on biological activity?
[/quote]

Correct, the release of methylene ureas is dictated by soil microbes and as a function of their activity, soil moisture, and soil temperature. Methylene urea is a combination of short and long chain molecules that are broken down by microbes into urea, and then further into ammonium and nitrate. Without microbial activity, those molecules will simply sit in soil solution.

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Re: Fall Nitrogen Regimens

Post by Green » November 8th, 2017, 10:41 pm

osuturfman wrote:
November 8th, 2017, 9:46 pm
Without microbial activity, those molecules will simply sit in soil solution.
I think the key phrase here is "in soil solution".

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Re: Fall Nitrogen Regimens

Post by PSU4ME » November 9th, 2017, 10:04 am

andy10917 wrote:
November 8th, 2017, 6:42 pm
+1. "SLOWED" is not "STOPPED", any more than there are gray areas of "that dog is a little dead" or "that lady is 15% pregnant". Urea during the slowdown may continue to force tender new growth, and avoidance of that is the very reason for "The Pause". I don't know any more ways to say that Lawn Care is a patient person's game, and if you're not patient maybe you should take up X-Box games instead.
I understand this and I'm not saying that I'm going to put it down early I was more asking if others are noticing the slow down as well. It may be until Thanksgiving week that it finally stops although the upcoming weather as KNN stated should certainly help. I took some vacation next week so I was hoping I could do it then but I may have to wait....I have 3 yards to do!

My neighbor, who I've been trying to help, won't listen to me to dump his lawn company. 10 days ago they put down lime, weed killer and a winterizer......... :banghead: . He said he loves how green his lawn is and i just shook my head.....can't make the horse drink I guess.

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Re: Fall Nitrogen Regimens

Post by andy10917 » November 9th, 2017, 10:17 am

Many members that have done the technique for a few years are writing down when the grass stopped, so that they establish their own personal range of Stop Dates over time. That's smart!

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Re: Fall Nitrogen Regimens

Post by Green » November 9th, 2017, 2:19 pm

PSU: I noticed some slight slowing down around the beginning of the pause this year. As the weeks go, it's going to keep slowing.

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Re: Fall Nitrogen Regimens

Post by Methodical » November 9th, 2017, 8:14 pm

andy10917 wrote:
November 8th, 2017, 9:32 pm
If you make it 4 weeks after the Milo before the grass completely stops, I see no reason why you couldn't make the last winterizing app with Urea.

As to the final height, that's a preference thing - I go to around 2.5" but my snow load is much heavier than your's in MD.
Thanks for the quick response. That's good to know. That will put me around the end of November. According to the weather forecast, we will be getting some mild days (low to high 50s) over the next week or so. I will keep an eye on the grass. In past, I've mowed into December because we've had such mild weather. I will go to SiteOne and stock up on some 46-0-0.

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Re: Fall Nitrogen Regimens

Post by Methodical » November 9th, 2017, 8:36 pm

Green wrote:
November 8th, 2017, 9:35 pm
Methodical: See Andy's reply above mine. And, chances are you didn't violate anything in his Fall Nitrogen plan!

Just curious, how much Milorganite and over what size area did you apply it? Heavy application to one person is light to another.
Yeah, you are right. My heavy is probably not yalls heavy. I put down around .75N/1000 Sq'

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Re: Fall Nitrogen Regimens

Post by Green » November 9th, 2017, 9:00 pm

0.75 lbs of N per thousand square feet is a standard rate of Milorganite Nitrogen application (by the manufacturer) in many states of the US. It's not all that heavy. No issues with that rate, whatsoever.

However...do remember that any further Milorganite apps after this time period probably won't be processed this Fall, and will just mostly sit until Spring.

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Re: Fall Nitrogen Regimens

Post by Methodical » November 11th, 2017, 5:33 pm

Thanks Green. I've changed plans based on this thread. I will put down some 46-0-0 as a winterizer.

We just had our first frost Friday (11/10) and temps dipped into the low 20s, so I will continue watching the grass, however, based on past years activity, I've mowed into December because of mild weather in November here in the DC area.

Question. According to the data sheet, 46-0-0 covers up to 23K sq' and I will only need it for 8k. How long will the 46-0-0 last? What storage procedures should I follow to make it last? I typically store my stuff in my shed.

Thanks...

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Re: Fall Nitrogen Regimens

Post by andy10917 » November 11th, 2017, 8:20 pm

There are no special requirements for storing Urea. I store it in an unheated barn, and put the paper bags inside of a plastic garbage bag to keep it somewhat dry. Works fine.

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Re: Fall Nitrogen Regimens

Post by Green » November 11th, 2017, 9:23 pm

Your weather pattern this time of year sounds similar to New Haven, CT (coastal). We dropped Fertilizer (the only app in the past few years) on my uncle's lawn in that area in early to mid October, about 4 weeks before his average first frost date. Heck, even in inland CT, I usually mow the first week of December for the final time.

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