Fallowing to reduce Poa

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Fallowing to reduce Poa

Post by gryd » April 25th, 2010, 12:36 pm

I didn't want to hijack an earlier thread about Poa Triv but I have one more section in the front yard left to renovate this August (and maybe a small crummy area in back as well). These areas are loaded with Poa Triv and Poa Annua and I was thinking of nuking it in late June to fallow it a bit. I've tried fallowing before with no success. Would it be beneficial to RU the area and slice it up with the slit seeder/verticutter to expose more weed seeds and then water it for a few weeks like I was trying to get new grass to grow? I'm expecting a ton of Poa when I renovate here and anything to reduce it would be worth the 50 bucks for the use of the slit seeder?
Thanks,
Greg

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Re: Fallowing to reduce Poa

Post by Abyss » April 25th, 2010, 12:45 pm

I would definitely scratch the soil surface up and then start watering. Your gonna want to for good seed to soil contact anyway, and you don't want to disturb those seeds then.

I would fallow, and then leave the soil as is. Don't scratch it up again. Throw the seed down and roll it in. You might get a little less germination but I'd take that over the chance of bringing up more weed seed

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Re: Fallowing to reduce Poa

Post by jglongisland » April 25th, 2010, 12:56 pm

I would do Certainty first, then RoundUp afterwards. Use the Certainty now while its actively growing.

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Re: Fallowing to reduce Poa

Post by andy10917 » April 25th, 2010, 12:59 pm

I believe in the practice, but I'm going to question your timing. I'm not sure that if the Summer is normally hot that the Poa Annua seeds would attempt germination in July. They might just sit there and outlast the fallowing process. It would work for the Triv, but the Poa Annua I dunno.

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Re: Fallowing to reduce Poa

Post by eriocaulon » April 25th, 2010, 1:17 pm

If you could, I would do it now. Right now temps and moisture are favorable for weed seed germination. I know it may be hard to do that in the front for aesthetic reasons, but maybe give it a try in back. Also, if the area is not so large, maybe try solarizing with clear plastic sheets. I personally am buying into the GaryC school of thought about no soil prep for an area with known weed seed. If you can get the bulk of the surface seed to germinate and die, your grass seed should have far less to compete with. Once again, my back problem area needs to be reseeded and the principal enemies being poa t and a but also spring/fall wetness. After my Nortron treatments last fall and a failed PRG overseed, much of that area is barren. I am planning a summer time overseeding as soon as my spring Dimension application wears off, with some selective roundup/Certainty beforehand.


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Re: Fallowing to reduce Poa

Post by GaryCinChicago » April 25th, 2010, 2:59 pm

Wow! Great thread. I have lots of thought on this and evidense to back it up. Give me some time, I tpe slow and have to dig up m reasearch that I was doing for personal use and in working with KingOfGreen.

Here's a few intional thoughts.
eriocaulon wrote:Right now temps and moisture are favorable for weed seed germination.
That is a key point. (both grassy and broad leaf weed seeds) Exhaust the supply of available viable seeds and success is increased. (in theory at least)
Also, if the area is not so large, maybe try solarizing with clear plastic sheets.
Rendering all viable seeds sterile. But often solarizing is not an option due to yard size and shapes.
andy10917 wrote:I'm not sure that if the Summer is normally hot that the Poa Annua seeds would attempt germination in July. They might just sit there and outlast the fallowing process. It would work for the Triv, but the Poa Annua I dunno.
http://www.agry.purdue.edu/turf/tips/2005/temp819.htm

"Optimum temperatures
for seed germination*

Annual bluegrass 68-86"


How's that for a monkey wrench in a plan?
eriocaulon wrote:I personally am buying into the GaryC school of thought about no soil prep for an area with known weed seed.
http://www.agry.purdue.edu/turf/tips/20 ... oatriv.htm

"Poa trivialis spreads via stolons which may be further spread during every hollow tine aerification."

With that in mind - consider every weed seed a safe bet too!

--------
Looking for the link that shows "studies have proven that adding phosphorous promoted poa annua germination and growth. And we all sow seeds with Starter Fertilizer, don't we?

More later!

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Re: Fallowing to reduce Poa

Post by gryd » April 25th, 2010, 3:34 pm

August is usually just as hot around here so I think I would get some of that Poa Annua growing (in July) with lots of cool irrigation. On the hand I don't know if I have the guts of not preparing the seed bed again (right before seeding). The area is small enough, however, that I could topdress with fresh topsoil prior to seeding. That may be an option for the front yard.

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Re: Fallowing to reduce Poa

Post by eriocaulon » April 25th, 2010, 3:50 pm

I would not trust any topsoil or compost--they both can be loaded with weed seed. I plan to spread seed and roll. I plan to put down tupersan to reduce the crabgrass competition. And because it's summertime, I'm going to get 3 bales of straw for mulch. Thankfully, the area I'm doing is fed entirely by one zone of my sprinkler system.

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Re: Fallowing to reduce Poa

Post by MorpheusPA » April 25th, 2010, 3:57 pm

For topsoil, if the spousal unit will let you, you can put it in a large baking pan (get a disposable aluminum one from the grocery store). Place 1 potato in the middle of the soil, or on top if there's not enough to bury it.

Bake at 300. When the potato is done, the soil is completely sterile--no weed seeds, bacteria, or fungi remain.

That only works for decently small amounts, up to broiler-pan sized.

Compost, no, don't do this.

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Re: Fallowing to reduce Poa

Post by GaryCinChicago » April 25th, 2010, 4:31 pm

Rules, rules, rules, we get lawn care rules, practices and beliefs pounded into our heads, then being creatures of habit, continue the mantras.

I've been working with KingOfGreen, he has had a number of SNAFU's since renovating. After the grass was established, he then removed a tree. Then the guy drove the boom truck on the KBG leaving ruts. Then he has a guy install an in-ground irrigation system, on top of KOG using RU on some poa spots. Bad timing and planning, leaving him lots of repairs to do, 'nuff said.

But how to beat our nemesis, both poa annua and trivialis and beat it I'm determined to figure out!

What's the seeding rule? Sow in spring or fall, with fall being the best because the cooler temp allow for root development. Sure, makes sense, I can dig it ... but what if I seed prior to this root development cool time frame?

Here's my thinking. July 1, sow seeds (providing the soil has been fallowed) KBG germinates between 59-86 degrees. The soil cools in the evenings so I think this is doable in July. Get the KBG up and growing, then Labor Day drop a good pre-emergent.

This here http://turf.unl.edu/pdfctarticles/March ... eeding.pdf says:
"Barricade / prodiamine - Wait 60 days after seeding or until after the secondmowing, whichever is longer"
and
"Dimension / dihiopyr - Applications to well‐established turf with good root system and uniform stand and has received at least two mowings.

Oh, but what about the "poor little roots, they fry in the heat" - is one of those mantras. Probably would if left unattended, sure. But how can we beat that? By watering, and watering often.

Oh, but "shallow watering doesn't promote deep roots" is next. True, but do we have deep roots? How deep is deep? If I sow in July, where are these deep roots, the plant is still too young.

The I read this from Michigan State Unv. http://www.turf.msu.edu/irrigation-prac ... er-quality

"Light, frequent applications of water are much more productive than heavy applications once a week. Remember that turf roots are naturally shorter during hot and dry weather, and water moved past the root zone is of no benefit. "

and here's a visual to back up that statement from Rutgers Univ..

Image


So why not?

Why not RU in spring.
Fallow while temps and moisture promote weed germination.
RU the new growth
(do not disturb the seedbed)
Seed July 1 (sow into moist soil. top dress and roll)
Keep it watered for germination
Keep it watered to promote growth
(broad leafs? no concern. Too hot to germinate)
Drop preM Labor Day - preventing any additional germination
Grow roots as it cools down

Who says we have to abide by the rules? All it takes is irrigation!
And KOG has a new system. He's going to be our guinea pig!!

I tried it last season without a problem myself.

Seeded in July 2010
Image

November
Image

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Re: Fallowing to reduce Poa

Post by jglongisland » April 25th, 2010, 4:39 pm

I basically did that last June (search "Rule Breaking Renovation"). My mistakes were:

#1) I didn't do a true fallowing, I scalped and thatched and watered for two weeks and then RU'd). It didn't work so well as I didn't get enough of the weeds to germinate. Who knows, the old Perennial Rye might have inhibited the weed seeds from germinating, once it was gone they (primarily Poa T) took off.

#2) I had REALLY bad luck with rain; 2 days after I dropped the seed we had a 3 inch rain storm; over the next two weeks we probably got 10-12 inches of rain. I have great drainage back there, but still had a lot of puddles and standing water.

3) Although I put down pre-M in September, I think it wore off too soon as we had a very, very warm November and early December. I should have used Barricade on my entire lawn or Dimension again in November.

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Re: Fallowing to reduce Poa

Post by MorpheusPA » April 25th, 2010, 6:37 pm

GaryCinChicago wrote: Why not RU in spring.
Fallow while temps and moisture promote weed germination.
RU the new growth
(do not disturb the seedbed)
Seed July 1 (sow into moist soil. top dress and roll)
Keep it watered for germination
Keep it watered to promote growth
(broad leafs? no concern. Too hot to germinate)
Drop preM Labor Day - preventing any additional germination
Grow roots as it cools down

Who says we have to abide by the rules? All it takes is irrigation!
You can break any rule that you like (after all, nobody's going to show up and point a finger at you or anything).

It's a really good idea to know the rules--so that you know if you break them and what you have to do to break them successfully. I brought in a full renovation. In early August, because that was when I could deal with it. I knew I was shattering every rule about that, but also knew how to get around it--water, water, water.

Not surprisingly, some of the seeds stuck the proverbial nose out, saw the weather, and decided to wait. I was still getting sprout in September, more than I should have been just from laggard seeds. Somewhat surprisingly, broadleaf germination was just fine at that time--all it seems to take is water and space.

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Re: Fallowing to reduce Poa

Post by gryd » April 25th, 2010, 7:06 pm

Gary,
What's to stop the Poa Annua from germinating? You are cooling down the soil and it should germinate along with the KBG.
Greg

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Re: Fallowing to reduce Poa

Post by kingofgreen » April 25th, 2010, 9:21 pm

"GaryCinChicago"]Rules, rules, rules, we get lawn care rules, practices and beliefs pounded into our heads, then being creatures of habit, continue the mantras.

I've been working with KingOfGreen, he has had a number of SNAFU's since renovating. After the grass was established, he then removed a tree. Then the guy drove the boom truck on the KBG leaving ruts. Then he has a guy install an in-ground irrigation system, on top of KOG using RU on some poa spots. Bad timing and planning, leaving him lots of repairs to do, 'nuff said.

No Lie there!!!,Gary has been steering me through this hobby for over 2 years now !! I`m still learning though!!
One thing I have learned is I hate looking at POA!! Just doesn`t belong in a beautiful stance of KBG!
RU is my friend,it hurts to pull the trigger in spring when everything is growing nice and green,but from what I read and been told if you don`t kill the POA it will come back ten fold !!


Who says we have to abide by the rules? All it takes is irrigation!
And KOG has a new system. He's going to be our guinea pig!!

Yes I am,Irrigation is installed,organics are being dropped heavily!!
RUing POA on site and plan on over seeding in July!! :yahoo:

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Re: Fallowing to reduce Poa

Post by GaryCinChicago » April 25th, 2010, 10:31 pm

kingofgreen wrote: Yes I am,Irrigation is installed,organics are being dropped heavily!!
RUing POA on site and plan on over seeding in July!! :yahoo:
Cool, but still - you should drop the original seeds on the bare spots first, THEN over seed the whole yard in two separate operations. This will ensure even texture and color throughout the whole lawn, with no difference between "those areas" and the rest of the yard.

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Re: Fallowing to reduce Poa

Post by kingofgreen » April 25th, 2010, 11:14 pm

GaryCinChicago wrote:
kingofgreen wrote: Yes I am,Irrigation is installed,organics are being dropped heavily!!
RUing POA on site and plan on over seeding in July!! :yahoo:
Cool, but still - you should drop the original seeds on the bare spots first, THEN over seed the whole yard in two separate operations. This will ensure even texture and color throughout the whole lawn, with no difference between "those areas" and the rest of the yard.
I did drop some of the seeds on the bare spots early in the season they are starting to grow now,then in July I will drop the rest of what i have and overseed.

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Re: Fallowing to reduce Poa

Post by GaryCinChicago » April 26th, 2010, 12:10 am

gryd wrote:Gary,
What's to stop the Poa Annua from germinating? You are cooling down the soil and it should germinate along with the KBG.
Greg
Yeah, Greg .... that is something to consider. I know those university studies say poa annua germinates at high soil temperatures too, but gezzzz, you just don't see it. I always notice it in spring, when temps are cooler.

But all part of the plan as a whole, with fallowing early, one should not have viable poa seeds lying on the soil's surface waiting to germinate because he used RU early enough, before the seedhead production period. Then not disturbing the soil (core aerating, slice seeding, etc) would prevent last year's seed production from germinating, in a perfect case scenario of course.

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Re: Fallowing to reduce Poa

Post by GaryCinChicago » April 26th, 2010, 11:16 pm

GaryCinChicago wrote:
gryd wrote:Gary,
What's to stop the Poa Annua from germinating? You are cooling down the soil and it should germinate along with the KBG.
Greg
Yeah, Greg .... that is something to consider. I know those university studies say poa annua germinates at high soil temperatures too, but gezzzz, you just don't see it. I always notice it in spring, when temps are cooler.
FYI http://www.agry.purdue.edu/turf/pubs/agry9802.htm

Poa annua is a winter annual that germinates in the late summer/early fall once soil temperatures fall below 70o F.Seedlings mature in the fall, overwinter in a vegetative state, and produce seed in late spring and early summer. Annual bluegrass is a prolific seed producer. An individual plant is capable of producing more than 360 viable seeds. The seed may lie dormant in the soil for many years before germinating. Annual bluegrass flowers and produces seed over several months and at any mowing height. Poa grows well under short days and cool conditions, and it will out-compete all other turf species during late fall
and early spring. Poa often dies in the heat of the summer (but may survive the stress). However, we now know there are also perennial types of Poa annua that will live through the stress of the summer, primarily in northern IN.

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Re: Fallowing to reduce Poa

Post by llO0DQLE » April 19th, 2017, 8:02 pm

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Re: Fallowing to reduce Poa

Post by Jackpine » August 4th, 2017, 4:40 am

Great thread especially since now we have Tenacity in the arsenal. For many in the northern parts of the cool season zone summer renos are a safe bet.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16908&sid=f9f0db05 ... 8955d5e5b0

3 apps of Tenacity in July after winding down the watering schedule followed by a pre-emergent to cover the fall period and Poa A problems are minimized.

DATE ATMP_MAX ATMP_MIN
====================================================================
07/01/2015 63.8 .. 48.9
07/02/2015 73.4 .. 41.8
07/03/2015 73.5 .. 49.5
07/04/2015 79.6 .. 58.1
07/05/2015 83.6 .. 52.8
07/06/2015 84.4 .. 63.5
07/07/2015 65.0 .. 49.6
07/08/2015 74.4 .. 42.8
07/09/2015 73.8 .. 50.0
07/10/2015 80.5 .. 49.4
07/11/2015 82.9 .. 59.8
07/12/2015 83.6 .. 57.0
07/13/2015 80.2 ...62.9
07/14/2015 70.1 ...56.7
07/15/2015 75.7 .. 50.1
07/16/2015 80.7 .. 52.6
07/17/2015 73.4 .. 61.5
07/19/2015 77.1 .. 67.6
07/20/2015 81.1 .. 62.8
07/21/2015 73.1 .. 55.3
07/22/2015 77.3 .. 53.3
07/23/2015 80.7 .. 50.5
07/24/2015 85.5 .. 64.7
07/25/2015 81.0 .. 63.5
07/26/2015 86.8 .. 58.6
07/27/2015 88.1 .. 60.5
07/28/2015 89.7 .. 58.1
07/29/2015 84.3 .. 68.8
07/30/2015 81.2 .. 61.8
07/31/2015 80.1 .. 60.3
08/01/2015 77.6 .. 57.2
08/02/2015 74.8 .. 59.8
08/03/2015 74.4 .. 57.8
==================

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