Hello All

[kingofgreen]

Just wanted to pop in and say hello. Alot of you may not remember me but after alot of convincing from GaryC and Mallory last spring/summer(that was fun) I successfully renovated 10Ksqft with elite KBG last fall and can`t wait until spring. We had some rust issues going on over the fall but all and all I`m very happy. Looking forward to checking out the site. It looks great

[bpgreen]

Hi, King of Green. Welcome aboard!

[turf_toes]

KOG,

Sure I remember you! Welcome to the site!

[GaryCinChicago]

We had some rust issues going on over the fall

Jason:
I'd be interested in seeing the advice given here by these KBG statesman. (as Gary genuflects from his keyboard)

[turf_toes]

KOG,

I moved your post to the cool-season forum so folks like Mallory, David, Bill, BP and others might see it and chip in with their opinions about your rust problem.

I'm on the fence about the effectiveness of corn meal in general, as far as an organic fungicide. I've used it and it seems to be a mild fertilizer so I guess there is no harm. I'm also not sure it works with rust. If I recall, even those who believe it is effective against some fungi will say it doesn't seem to work against red thread and, if I am correct, rust.

In general, I'd tell you not to worry about the rust as I'm pretty certain your grass will be more resistant as it matures. The first fall about a year or so after my renovation, I had powdery milldew problems in the northeastern portion of my yard, where it is in the shadow of the house. The problem lessened every year and last fall, I didn't notice it at all.

Hopefully David, Bill, BP and Mallory will see this thread and respond.

[Dchall_San_Antonio]

I have not seen a lot of discussion about successful organic solutions for rust. Based on research from Brazil, milk is what I've been suggesting but I don't see much feedback from people using it.

[GaryCinChicago]

The strange thing with KOG's rust problem, and which drove me batty trying to assist him, was the varying chlorosis he was seeing. One weekend, the grass is looking beautiful and healthy, the next weekend it was yellow, with the rust very predominant. A week later, it's looking fine again. Every weekend he saw a change from healthy green to chlorosis and back.

This baffled me and I was trying hard to research, but KOG had a few variables.

Was the chlorosis caused by the inability of iron uptake due to high phosphorous from the starter fertilizer?

Was his maple tree leaves causing the problem?
http://mdc.mo.gov/conmag/1995/10/07.html
"Scientists have found that fallen maple and oak leaves release natural phenols during the first 6 to 8 months of the rotting period. These phenols INHIBIT growth of (all) seedling roots, but rot and disappear from soil and mulch within 9 months of weathering". (Other research shows that oak leaves lose their phenol in well-heated compost faster than 9 months [depending on highest temperature and temperature duration], due to more rapid cellulose breakdown)."Better to keep (ALL) dead leaves and leaf compost (under 9 months old) OUT of an area where seeds will be sprouting until after plants are up and growing well".

Was the constant watering of his seeds and then seedlings causing the problem?
"Excessive rain will wash the acidity out of the surface of our calcium rich soil. When that happens the iron that is already in the soil becomes unavailable to the plants until the acidity increases again."

KOG definitely applied enough N after sowing, but could it be a micro-nutrient(s) that was locked up, due to pH? His soil test wasn't that far off, and some lime was applied earlier in the season.

A lot of questions, that's for sure. Hopefully he will post some pictures of the time line.

[turf_toes]

Was the chlorosis caused by the inability of iron uptake due to high phosphorous from the starter fertilizer?

This was one of my first thoughts reading your post today. Did he have a soil test? I know you suspect the phospherous. But I'm wondering if it isn't just partially his soil.

I know that in my area, the soil is fairly acidic and I normally get much better results from lime than any fertilizer I apply.

Was the constant watering of his seeds and then seedlings causing the problem?
"Excessive rain will wash the acidity out of the surface of our calcium rich soil. When that happens the iron that is already in the soil becomes unavailable to the plants until the acidity increases again."

That's an excellent possibility. The other thing I noticed this past fall is that many of the lawns in my area had a rust problem. This was the case in established lawns that never had the problem before.

A lot of questions, that's for sure. Hopefully he will post some pictures of the time line.

I'd really like to see the pics too.

[kingofgreen]

No problem guys, i will post a timeline as soon as I get a free minute.Thanks

[turf_toes]

No problem guys, i will post a timeline as soon as I get a free minute.Thanks

Kog,

Take your time. We've got six more weeks until spring!

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[Dchall_San_Antonio]

Take your time. We've got six more weeks until spring!

Thanks to Punxsutawney Phil...or as my first wife, the comedienne, called him, Philadelphia Punx.

[turf_toes]

Take your time. We've got six more weeks until spring!

Thanks to Punxsutawney Phil...or as my first wife, the comedienne, called him, Philadelphia Punx.

LOL. He's actually closer to Pittsburgh (65 miles north) than Philly.

[Bestlawn]

Hey, KoG! Hey, Gary! Really great to see you both here.

A rather unnerving problem you had there, I imagine. I'd like to either understand a little better or try eliminating the stated possibilities if I can.

1.
"Scientists have found that fallen maple and oak leaves release natural phenols during the first 6 to 8 months of the rotting period. These phenols INHIBIT growth of (all) seedling roots, but rot and disappear from soil and mulch within 9 months of weathering". (Other research shows that oak leaves lose their phenol in well-heated compost faster than 9 months [depending on highest temperature and temperature duration], due to more rapid cellulose breakdown)."Better to keep (ALL) dead leaves and leaf compost (under 9 months old) OUT of an area where seeds will be sprouting until after plants are up and growing well".

Tell me how this might apply. Are his maple trees dead and rotting? Or, does "rotting period" only apply to the fallen leaves as they decompose? I think I find the term a little confusing. But concerning the fallen leaves, I don't think the grass would have cycled the way you describe were the problem due to the leaves. The reason is that the article states 9 months, so I think the chlorosis would have been continuous and irreversible during those initial growing monthsof the season. Does that sound probable?

2.
Was the constant watering of his seeds and then seedlings causing the problem?
"Excessive rain will wash the acidity out of the surface of our calcium rich soil. When that happens the iron that is already in the soil becomes unavailable to the plants until the acidity increases again."

I want to eliminate this possibility by assuming KoG didn't water nearly enough to be considered excessive. The light waterings and gradual increase aren't enough to leach nutrients through the soil.

3.
with the rust very predominant

With visible dusty/powdery spores, right?

One thing I'm wondering is if the chlorosis and incidents of rust were simultaneous or incongruent? I want to be certain the yellowing wasn't caused by the rust (which is possible) and was a separate problem each time intermittently.

A light shot of nitrogen might have made a difference even though I know he did fertlize with the starter fertilizer. Just a little more probably wouldn't have hurt and may have served to break nutrient tie up if that were a problem. Another thing I'm wondering is if the fall season brought unusually hazy and humid days? This can cause the same problems with all three - rust, chlorosis, and nutrient tie up - due to there not being enough sunlight for photosynthesis. KoG, did you happen to notice?

I sure hate I missed your exchanges during that time. I might have tried to look for other clues and more questions to ask might have occured to me. Lets see what happens this year with that.

[GaryCinChicago]

I found some of KOG's pictures that I saved here.

Here's is Oct 12, coming along nicely ... after 0.5 Lb of 46-0-0- urea, because of the rust and chlorosis.



Then 4 days later, and some watering, the young seedlings go back to its former chlorosis stage again. One thing that I notice is the stripe. KOG and I went back and forth but were unable to determine what was causing the stripe to be so predominant other than water.

The same angle - Oct 16



Oct 16, different angle of yard / different stripe - yellow.

[GaryCinChicago]

1.
"Scientists have found that fallen maple and oak leaves release natural phenols during the first 6 to 8 months of the rotting period. These phenols INHIBIT growth of (all) seedling roots, but rot and disappear from soil and mulch within 9 months of weathering".

Tell me how this might apply. Are his maple trees dead and rotting? Or, does "rotting period" only apply to the fallen leaves as they decompose? I think I find the term a little confusing. But concerning the fallen leaves, I don't think the grass would have cycled the way you describe were the problem due to the leaves. The reason is that the article states 9 months, so I think the chlorosis would have been continuous and irreversible during those initial growing months of the season. Does that sound probable?

The article peeked my interest while also confusing me, LOL! I too wondered about the 6 to 8 months, but then thought - if one left leaves on the turf over winter and then come spring, mowed/mulched them into the soil - would these phenols still present a problem, seeing that the first mow in April and the sowing in August would be within the time frame.

3.
with the rust very predominant

With visible dusty/powdery spores, right?

Yes

One thing I'm wondering is if the chlorosis and incidents of rust were simultaneous or incongruent? I want to be certain the yellowing wasn't caused by the rust (which is possible) and was a separate problem each time intermittently.

If I recall correctly, first there were minor symtoms of rust (don't worry KOG - a little fall nitrogen will cure it) and then the major chlorosis came. KOG needs to step in with his time frame.

[eriocaulon]

I would say pic one shows some signs of excessive seed rate as evidenced by the velvety texture. Pic two is likely the end result, disease. I say this because I have seen it before in my own lawn--having seeded the front lawn too heavily. Thankfully, if it is, the following spring will bring about a turnaround and the kbg spread will make it a temporary blip. I am confident KoG's lawn will do just fine this year with ample fertilizer and favorable conditions.

[kingofgreen]

Hello everyone!i`m still tryng to figure this forum out just spend 45 minutes posting pics accidentally hit the back button and lost everything!!!BOO!!

Great to find you again Mallory. Gary has been losing sleep dealing with me threw the renovation HAHA! the beginning stages started off great but after the first 30 days or so we ran into a seesaw of problems. Gary is dead on with his time line, in fact he probably has a better log than I do! I`ll start the pictures at the first trim. I seeded on 8/23.

First mowing 9/30, visible bare spots but overall very happy with the progress





Now the fun begins, on 10/15 I started to notice some yellowing. Keep in mind I have been fertilizing regularly. The watering schedule i feel was a little excessive, but I was REALLY worried about the seeds drying out so I was still watering 2 -3 times a day for 15-20 each time.






Then on 10/19 it started to look a little better. After talking with Gary I had not watered for a few days...






Now two weeks later,the yellowing comes back strong.....10/27








Now we move into 11/6 still dealing with the issues.......










11/12 was the final mow still looked crappy......








Last pics before winter came,actually came around some


11/19 -12/13

[turf_toes]

KOG,

I'll let Mallory, David, BP or Bill chime in here. But I think your lawn is going to be just fine come spring. If my memory serves, my front yard renovation didn't look so great that first spring (at least early in the spring). I had lots of empty/bald spots.

The first year is always the toughest. The first season for your new lawn is especially tough (Gary's great looking renovation aside). My advice is to hang in there. My prediction is you're going to be pretty happy in a few months.

[texasweed]

Welcome to the Forum.

[Dchall_San_Antonio]

Is there any way to know what is causing the stripes? It almost looks like there is another world under the soil surface. Was there a building on that lot before? A driveway? Is there a septic tank? Is there a lot of fill dirt? Those stripes are far too uniform to be random.