North Western IL Pre-emergent application mid May?

Kentucky bluegrass, Fescue, Rye and Bent, etc
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DTockeII
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North Western IL Pre-emergent application mid May?

Post by DTockeII » May 16th, 2016, 11:38 am

Soil temps have averaged around 55* based on my findings, but have peaked a few times up to 60-65*F. Is the application of pre-emergent dependent on if the peak temp has ever peaked above 60*, or when it stays above 60* for more than x days?

Trying to determine if I have missed my window to apply, or if I'm still ok to apply this year? I'm up in the Fox Lake, IL area.

Thanks all!

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Re: North Western IL Pre-emergent application mid May?

Post by ken-n-nancy » May 16th, 2016, 12:45 pm

You're not "too late" in the sense that anything bad would happen if you apply now. The "too late" question is one of whether or not it will be in time to address the majority of crabgrass germination. You're definitely past the peak window, but I speculate there are still some weeds that will have their development curtailed by a pre-emergent application now.

The worst that can happen is you expend the time, expense, and environmental impact for the application with little benefit. If the time, cost, and environmental impact are all minor, then every day you wait is one day you'll be later! Git 'er done!

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Re: North Western IL Pre-emergent application mid May?

Post by DTockeII » May 16th, 2016, 1:55 pm

Thanks! Looks like the soil has stayed cool enough where its worth the while, but I've likely missed some. Sounds like going ahead and applying would still be a good idea.

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Re: North Western IL Pre-emergent application mid May?

Post by oze » May 16th, 2016, 2:42 pm

If your neighborhood is anything like mine, even if you miss the window for crabgrass, it is well worth the time and money to apply a pre-em just to prevent the infestation from the dandelion farms surrounding the yard!

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Re: North Western IL Pre-emergent application mid May?

Post by DTockeII » May 16th, 2016, 4:09 pm

Agreed! Another follow up, if I over-seeded 4/24, is it safe to apply the pre-emergent at this point?


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Re: North Western IL Pre-emergent application mid May?

Post by TimmyG » May 16th, 2016, 4:17 pm

Best to read the pre-emergent label. It should tell you when it is safe to apply following seeding (or more likely germination/emergence).

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Re: North Western IL Pre-emergent application mid May?

Post by DTockeII » May 16th, 2016, 4:44 pm

Right, all it says is 4 mowings, so not too helpful haha. (Just using Halts)

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oze
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Re: North Western IL Pre-emergent application mid May?

Post by oze » May 16th, 2016, 5:12 pm

I'm not a KBG guy and *certainly* not an expert, but if you seeded on 4/24, I would dare say that it is way to soon to apply a pre-emergent at this time. I overseeded very quickly germinating perennial ryegrass last year, and I just checked my notes. My 4th mowing wasn't until 6 weeks after sowing the seeds. My guess is that time would be even longer for KBG.

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Re: North Western IL Pre-emergent application mid May?

Post by ken-n-nancy » May 16th, 2016, 5:48 pm

Presuming that pendimethalin is still the active ingredient in Halts (I haven't looked at a bag in a few years), the mode of action isn't actually preventing germination, but by inhibiting early root and shoot growth. I think a young plant (of affected species) would still be very susceptible to its effects for some time after germination. If the bag says 4 mowings, then I'd wait that long. For some types of KBG, you'll be lucky to get four mowings within two months after seeding!

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Re: North Western IL Pre-emergent application mid May?

Post by DTockeII » May 17th, 2016, 8:17 am

I'm thinking you're right, that its too soon and not worth risking the new "crop" I put down. I'll consider it again in June or just wait till next year.

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Re: North Western IL Pre-emergent application mid May?

Post by LoneRanger » May 17th, 2016, 8:42 am

Unfortunately, this is one of the pitfalls of spring seeding. Wait until late fall to apply the pre-emergent.

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Re: North Western IL Pre-emergent application mid May?

Post by DTockeII » June 10th, 2016, 8:45 am

Thanks! If I wait till late fall, will it need to be re-applied in spring again?

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Re: North Western IL Pre-emergent application mid May?

Post by TimmyG » June 10th, 2016, 9:23 am

Undoubtedly yes. Referring again to the bag for instructions, it should tell you how many months it remains active. Even the heaviest dose of the longest lasting pre-M is still only good for about 5 months, and that ain't pendimethalin (Halts).

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Re: North Western IL Pre-emergent application mid May?

Post by oze » June 10th, 2016, 9:25 am

DTockeII wrote:Thanks! If I wait till late fall, will it need to be re-applied in spring again?
This is something that I didn't know until joining this board. If you battle grassy weeds such as triv and annua, Spring and late Summer split applications of pre-emerge are an absolute requirement.

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Re: North Western IL Pre-emergent application mid May?

Post by Billy » June 10th, 2016, 9:52 am

I wouldn't be so quick to recommend fall (or even late summer) PRE applications for cool season lawns. First, Poa trivialis is a perennial (not an annual), so PRE applications won't affect it at all. As for Poa annua, it can germinate nearly year-round in cool season climates (not in the heat of the summer and not under snow cover, but almost any other time). The risk with using PREs in the fall (or even late summer) is that you lose your best time to apply seed. Additionally, all PRE products affect desirable turfgrasses in some way -- it's not always huge, but they all affect them in some way. That's why we recommend that PREs be used only when and as much as they need to (and certainly no more) to control a specific problem. Adding extra PRE doesn't give you extra protection -- it just gives you a turf stand that can't withstand stress as well.

I see that we're about a month out from the original post, so I don't know if this option is much help for this year, but consider products with the ai dithiopyr for subsequent years. Dithiopyr is an excellent PRE for crabgrass prevention, plus it controls crabgrass post-emergently to the 3-4 leaf stage. So, if you think you may have missed the window (or the weather warms up on you real suddenly), dithiopyr will have you covered from the PRE and the POST sides. Good luck!

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Re: North Western IL Pre-emergent application mid May?

Post by seiyafan » June 10th, 2016, 2:24 pm

Use Tenacity, it will act as a PRE and also allow you to seed at the same time.

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Re: North Western IL Pre-emergent application mid May?

Post by LoneRanger » June 11th, 2016, 5:23 pm

Billy wrote:First, Poa trivialis is a perennial (not an annual), ..
True
Billy wrote:so PRE applications won't affect it at all.
False. It will affect it when it's germinating.
Billy wrote:As for Poa annua, it can germinate nearly year-round in cool season climates (not in the heat of the summer and not under snow cover, but almost any other time).
When a turf stand is out of control, multiple applications can get it under control.
Billy wrote:The risk with using PREs in the fall (or even late summer) is that you lose your best time to apply seed.
Not when pre-m is applied per label after germination.
Billy wrote:Additionally, all PRE products affect desirable turfgrasses in some way -- it's not always huge, but they all affect them in some way.
I personally have not seen research.
Billy wrote:That's why we recommend ..
Who is we?

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Re: North Western IL Pre-emergent application mid May?

Post by Billy » June 12th, 2016, 8:39 am

LoneRanger wrote:
Billy wrote:so PRE applications won't affect it at all.
False. It will affect it when it's germinating.
This sounds like a Dwight K. Shrute line from The Office. Sure, a PRE can help prevent new seed emergence of Poa trivialis, but most Poa trivialis infestations coem from vegetation material, not seeds. PRE applications also don't reduce what's already there. I just don't want anyone to think that I said that Barricade or Dimension will get rid of their Poa trivialis, then be disappointed when it doesn't work.
LoneRanger wrote:
Billy wrote:As for Poa annua, it can germinate nearly year-round in cool season climates (not in the heat of the summer and not under snow cover, but almost any other time).
When a turf stand is out of control, multiple applications can get it under control.
??? Not sure what you mean here. Since Poa can germinate at just about any time in cool season climates, you would have to be constantly applying PREs to try to control it, and this would have an adverse impact on the desirable turfgrass.
LoneRanger wrote:
Billy wrote:The risk with using PREs in the fall (or even late summer) is that you lose your best time to apply seed.
Not when pre-m is applied per label after germination.
Most PRE products with activit on Poa annua suggest waiting 2-3 months after the 2nd mowing of overseeded turf. Understand the difference between overseeding (planting a different species over top of another one, like planting perennial ryegrass overtop of bermudagrass to give green cover during the bermudagrass dormant period) and interseeding (seeding a cool season grass into an existing cool season stand to make it thicker). Also, Poa annua often begins germinating in mid- to late-Aug, the same time that cool season seeding is taking place. So, you would have to wait until Oct or Nov to use your PRE and you've missed the biggest fall Poa annua germination window.

LoneRanger wrote:
Billy wrote:Additionally, all PRE products affect desirable turfgrasses in some way -- it's not always huge, but they all affect them in some way.
I personally have not seen research.
This has been know for many years (at least since the 1960s). The mode of action for many common PREs today is to interfere with cell division in roots. Root inhibition is a common issue with overapplication of common PREs, like pendimethalin, prodiamine, and dithiopyr. In fact, the only PRE with very little root inhibition isn't labeled for home lawns.
LoneRanger wrote:
Billy wrote:That's why we recommend ..
Who is we?
The turfgrass academic and agronomic community.

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