Overseed methods

Kentucky bluegrass, Fescue, Rye and Bent, etc
aerodan1
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Overseed methods

Post by aerodan1 » June 26th, 2016, 9:17 pm

Hi,

I will be overseeding my back and side yards this summer / fall and wanted to discuss a few methods for overseeding to get the best game plan for this job.

My two biggest questions in this project are what method(s) I should use to overseed and how to know when the dimension I sprayed this spring has worn off (I assume it's a bad idea to overseed if the dimension is still active?). I sprayed Dimension everywhere at the regular 4 month rate in mid April, hoping it will wear off by mid to late August so I can overseed at that time. As noted in another post, I have noticed a lot of the grass that germinated from the initial seeding is very stunted in its growth, so I'm hoping it will be easy to tell if I start seeing growth from there. From the research I've done, here are the various overseeding methods that seem to be most popular and my impressions:

Core aerate and either broadcast or slice seed: It seems like a lot of landscapers and homeowners incorporate aeration techniques into their overseeding efforts, but aeration stresses the lawn and isn't necessary for an effective overseed.

Slice seeding: Lot's of people seem to swear by this technique, but it too stresses the lawn and seems like it makes it look pretty ugly (at least for short-term if you make perpendicular passes on lawn with decent existing turf) and kills some grass in the process. Sounds like a decent technique if you just killed off a lawn and still have the dead grass stalks left over in order to get good seed to soil contact.

Broadcast / drop / by hand spread and roll in: Seems like not the best germination rate unless the soil is at least scratched up first, and maybe this approach is ok for bare areas, but what about thin areas? Seems like the roller would just be rolling on top of the existing grass and not be very useful. Thin topdressing of peat moss or compost seems optional - I have irrigation so keeping the seed moist isn't a problem, and I'm not worried about the birds at my house eating it.

Overseeding machine: E.g. Ryan Mataway machine - seems to be a man killer and also tears up some of the existing grass. Also seems better fit for very smooth, flat surfaces (my lawn is kind of bumpy in a bunch of spots).

I have more reading up to do on fertilization, seeding rates, pre m's, optimal temps to plant, etc. In the meantime I have attached a few pics to this post and the next - some almost bald spots, lots of very thin spots, some spots that are thicker. Thanks very much for any help.
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aerodan1
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Re: Overseed methods

Post by aerodan1 » June 26th, 2016, 9:18 pm

Few more pics
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Re: Overseed methods

Post by tlinden » June 26th, 2016, 9:50 pm

Throw down the seed and then peat moss. Its messy but it makes a huge difference!

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Re: Overseed methods

Post by probasesteal » June 26th, 2016, 9:57 pm

I like to BLSC on a regular bases weeks before, thoroughly water the soil, soil moist coating to the seeds, spread, cover with peat/compost and water frequently.

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Re: Overseed methods

Post by northeastlawn » June 26th, 2016, 10:20 pm

I kind of regret overseeding instead of a full reno, but that aside if your going to do it.....

I looked at all the mechanical overseed methods last year, but decided against it from everything on this site. Also all the slice seeders i could rent seemed kind of cheap and just kind of randomly dropped seed after the soil was disturbed. I wanted that control, I decided to just to not slice seed and roll the seeds in.

I basically...
1.) Cut the lawn to ~2" incremental over a week or two as per the guide.
2.) Watered the lawn heavy the night before to make the soil soft
3.) spread the seed
4.) Rolled the seed in
5.) Sprayed Tenacity to keep the weeds out for 6 weeks
6.) Cover with peatmoss (the biggest PIA) to keep the seed moist and at least make it seem like the birds aren't eating all the seed.
7.) Water up to 4xday for short bursts when you get those 90deg august days.

My biggest mistake was not trying to get some kind of pre-m down 6 weeks after the tenacity wore out. All the watering i did caused a POA explosion, the lawn looked so good in the fall. Not as good in the spring with the POA.

Also I wanted the lawn perfect and didn't have faith it would spread. So I reseeded and kept watering, which prevented a pre-m app and the continued watering caused the POA to thrive.

Good luck


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Re: Overseed methods

Post by aerodan1 » June 27th, 2016, 12:02 am

northeastlawn wrote:I kind of regret overseeding instead of a full reno, but that aside if your going to do it.....

I looked at all the mechanical overseed methods last year, but decided against it from everything on this site. Also all the slice seeders i could rent seemed kind of cheap and just kind of randomly dropped seed after the soil was disturbed. I wanted that control, I decided to just to not slice seed and roll the seeds in.

I basically...
1.) Cut the lawn to ~2" incremental over a week or two as per the guide.
2.) Watered the lawn heavy the night before to make the soil soft
3.) spread the seed
4.) Rolled the seed in
5.) Sprayed Tenacity to keep the weeds out for 6 weeks
6.) Cover with peatmoss (the biggest PIA) to keep the seed moist and at least make it seem like the birds aren't eating all the seed.
7.) Water up to 4xday for short bursts when you get those 90deg august days.

My biggest mistake was not trying to get some kind of pre-m down 6 weeks after the tenacity wore out. All the watering i did caused a POA explosion, the lawn looked so good in the fall. Not as good in the spring with the POA.

Also I wanted the lawn perfect and didn't have faith it would spread. So I reseeded and kept watering, which prevented a pre-m app and the continued watering caused the POA to thrive.

Good luck
Ouch, I would think if the lawn looked really good in the fall it would be dense enough to crowd out the POA. Was your second reseeding in the springtime? Thanks for the follow up, but with an area this large (12 - 13K sq. ft. approximate) it sounds like it would take a week just to spread the peat / compost (I have not done this before, I know it gets applied real thin, like 1/4 inch at most).

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Re: Overseed methods

Post by aerodan1 » June 27th, 2016, 12:06 am

tlinden wrote:Throw down the seed and then peat moss. Its messy but it makes a huge difference!

[ Post made via Android ] Image
Thank you for the follow up. I have visions of looking like pigpen if I go this route.

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Re: Overseed methods

Post by aerodan1 » June 27th, 2016, 12:07 am

probasesteal wrote:I like to BLSC on a regular bases weeks before, thoroughly water the soil, soil moist coating to the seeds, spread, cover with peat/compost and water frequently.

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Will look into soil conditioner, a topic I know nothing about at this point! Thanks

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Re: Overseed methods

Post by northeastlawn » June 27th, 2016, 7:57 am

When I meant reseeded, I meant throw more seed in the bare spots. It seems innocent enough, but throwing that seed down means....

1.) continue watering, which helps the poa germinate
2.) no pre-m to prevent the poa from popping up in the spring
3.) No fall fertilizer (No fertilizer within 30 days of germination)

I didn't seed in the spring because I put down a pre-m for crabgrass down. The poa seed from this spring are in the lawn already, they germinate in august, you can stop them with a pre-m, but then you can't overseed.

It gets complicated. The way your lawn looks in the fall, may not be how it looks in spring if there is POA waiting to pop up.

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Re: Overseed methods

Post by oze » June 27th, 2016, 8:57 am

I did an overseed last Fall, and one thing that I definitely recommend is the use of a PGR. I followed the steps that turf_toes lists in this excellent post: http://aroundtheyard.com/northern/growt ... ng#p203785 , and I was thrilled with the way things turned out. I did overseed with perennial rye, so your results may vary, but it never got to the point where I had to mow my existing No-mix grass before my new baby seedlings were also ready for their first haircut. PGR is expensive, but I found a generic "sample" size which suited my needs exactly pretty cheap. And yeah, not being able to apply that final Pre-em has resulted in several continents of triv and annua, which I am now fighting with Velocity. The fun never ends!

Good luck!

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Re: Overseed methods

Post by northeastlawn » June 27th, 2016, 9:26 am

One thing that never gets talked about is the difference between over-seeding with PR and over-seeding with KBG. PR germinates really quick in August, as quick as a week, but you could loose some of it when you put a pre-m own.

On the other hand KBG will take 4 weeks to germinate, but is very tolerate of tenacity and pre-m, so it seems easier to sneak that pre-m in.

You definitely need a PGR to stunt growth if you have an existing PR lawn and expect to over-seed it with KBG. If your seeding with sun and shade mix, you might as well assume your watering for KBG.

A lot of these things is the reason why full reno's are easier than over-seeding.

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Re: Overseed methods

Post by probasesteal » June 27th, 2016, 5:50 pm

In case you weren't aware, the recipe for BLSC is in the article section.
As mentioned above I think PGR is required for a successful overseed of fescue or kbg.
I'm also a tenacity fan after the peat goes down and starter once seeding start to germinate.

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Re: Overseed methods

Post by sain6815 » June 27th, 2016, 6:12 pm

I think PGR would be helpful for kbg because of slow germination speed.

But for fescue, last season, I applied baby shampoo, and followed up with a good watering. Then I waited a couple days and raked my whole lawn and pulled out a bunch of dead grass that got scorched during the summer.

After that, I mowed it low and threw out the seed and watered. Nothing else and it worked like a charm.

Peat moss probably would help, but I went LO-FI and it turned out great.


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Re: Overseed methods

Post by aerodan1 » June 27th, 2016, 8:50 pm

northeastlawn wrote:When I meant reseeded, I meant throw more seed in the bare spots. It seems innocent enough, but throwing that seed down means....

1.) continue watering, which helps the poa germinate
2.) no pre-m to prevent the poa from popping up in the spring
3.) No fall fertilizer (No fertilizer within 30 days of germination)

I didn't seed in the spring because I put down a pre-m for crabgrass down. The poa seed from this spring are in the lawn already, they germinate in august, you can stop them with a pre-m, but then you can't overseed.

It gets complicated. The way your lawn looks in the fall, may not be how it looks in spring if there is POA waiting to pop up.
Got it, I'm sure all the research I do on here and all the help everyone provides I'll still be learning some things the hard way, just hoping to minimize.

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Re: Overseed methods

Post by aerodan1 » June 27th, 2016, 9:00 pm

oze wrote:I did an overseed last Fall, and one thing that I definitely recommend is the use of a PGR. I followed the steps that turf_toes lists in this excellent post: http://aroundtheyard.com/northern/growt ... ng#p203785 , and I was thrilled with the way things turned out. I did overseed with perennial rye, so your results may vary, but it never got to the point where I had to mow my existing No-mix grass before my new baby seedlings were also ready for their first haircut. PGR is expensive, but I found a generic "sample" size which suited my needs exactly pretty cheap. And yeah, not being able to apply that final Pre-em has resulted in several continents of triv and annua, which I am now fighting with Velocity. The fun never ends!

Good luck!
That's interesting, so is the main point to keep the mower off the lawn? I have a heavy Bunton 48" walkbehind, which probably isn't the best thing to be rolling across baby grass.

The thing is though, I have a problem right now with a lot of grass that was planted last October and never really got the chance to grow, I'm guessing because of the dimension I put down in mid April. So I'm waiting for the dimension to wear off hopefully mid - late August to allow all those spots to actually grow. Setting aside a PGR for a second, would tenacity also possibly stunt the growth of a TTTF? Per the tenacity website, use lower amounts for PRG, fine fescue and St. Augustinegrass, and not recommended for use on a few other types. I hope I don't have issues with Poa annua this August (virtually none at all in my whole yard at the moment) but one of the other posters mentioned it germinated in August, scary!

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Re: Overseed methods

Post by bernstem » June 27th, 2016, 10:12 pm

I have tried pretty much all the methods described in the first post. The easiest is to drop seed and cover with Peat Moss or finished Compost. Germination rates are as good with that method as any other. If you have a lot of weed pressure, especially Poa Annua or Poa Trivialis, you should give a great deal of consideration as to whether disturbing the soil is worth the increased weed pressure.

For 10-12k square feet, plan on 6-8 hours to spread Peat or Compost. I would go thinner with the Peat Moss (1/8 inch) than compost (1/8-1/4 inch).

Poa Annua will grow anywhere. A thick lawn is some protection, but it will still creep in unless you actively work to prevent it. Even then, some will get by.

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Re: Overseed methods

Post by aerodan1 » June 27th, 2016, 11:52 pm

bernstem wrote:I have tried pretty much all the methods described in the first post. The easiest is to drop seed and cover with Peat Moss or finished Compost. Germination rates are as good with that method as any other. If you have a lot of weed pressure, especially Poa Annua or Poa Trivialis, you should give a great deal of consideration as to whether disturbing the soil is worth the increased weed pressure.

For 10-12k square feet, plan on 6-8 hours to spread Peat or Compost. I would go thinner with the Peat Moss (1/8 inch) than compost (1/8-1/4 inch).

Poa Annua will grow anywhere. A thick lawn is some protection, but it will still creep in unless you actively work to prevent it. Even then, some will get by.
Great advice, I think I am gonna avoid mechanical methods and progressively cut low and broadcast the seed. Everyone seems to advocate for a thin dressing of peat / compost, so likely that as well. Thanks!

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Re: Overseed methods

Post by aerodan1 » June 27th, 2016, 11:54 pm

sain6815 wrote:I think PGR would be helpful for kbg because of slow germination speed.

But for fescue, last season, I applied baby shampoo, and followed up with a good watering. Then I waited a couple days and raked my whole lawn and pulled out a bunch of dead grass that got scorched during the summer.

After that, I mowed it low and threw out the seed and watered. Nothing else and it worked like a charm.

Peat moss probably would help, but I went LO-FI and it turned out great.


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Like the plan and the results, so no pre m?

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Re: Overseed methods

Post by aerodan1 » June 28th, 2016, 12:16 am

probasesteal wrote:In case you weren't aware, the recipe for BLSC is in the article section.
As mentioned above I think PGR is required for a successful overseed of fescue or kbg.
I'm also a tenacity fan after the peat goes down and starter once seeding start to germinate.

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Thank you for the useful tips!

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Re: Overseed methods

Post by sain6815 » July 9th, 2016, 9:21 am

aerodan1 wrote:
sain6815 wrote:I think PGR would be helpful for kbg because of slow germination speed.

But for fescue, last season, I applied baby shampoo, and followed up with a good watering. Then I waited a couple days and raked my whole lawn and pulled out a bunch of dead grass that got scorched during the summer.

After that, I mowed it low and threw out the seed and watered. Nothing else and it worked like a charm.

Peat moss probably would help, but I went LO-FI and it turned out great.


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Like the plan and the results, so no pre m?
I did not apply Pre-M. Don't have a ton of issues in this lawn with weeds. I am looking at purchasing a bottle of prodiamine though. So I would probably apply Pre-M once fescue germinates this fall.


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