Is my soil really that bad or is it me?

Kentucky bluegrass, Fescue, Rye and Bent, etc
Casutherland
Posts: 364
Joined: July 4th, 2016, 8:33 pm
Location: Cane Ridge, TN
Grass Type: TTTF
Lawn Size: 1000-3000
Level: Some Experience

Is my soil really that bad or is it me?

Post by Casutherland » June 12th, 2017, 9:37 pm

As most of you probably know, I have been trying to go by the book on everything I do to my yard.

I just cannot seem to get good results on my yard and I honk its attributed to my soil or soil compaction/composition.

So here's the deal...I have been applying Serenade/companion/actinovate bi weekly since early March. I have also been applying BLKH and BLSC bi weekly. I have been by the book on watering and fertilizer. Where am I going wrong?

Currently I'm dealing with many areas of the lawn that are looking like the image below. It's just not getting better and I've about had enough. This evening I was out hand watering my hell strips and watched as the water I was putting down was just running off the edges of the soil like a river. Is that due to soil compaction? I mean at this point I'm thinking I should mechanically aerate daily...I'm so fed up!!

Here are some images of what I'm dealing with. It appears to be a combination of disease pressure and grass that can't breath.


Image

Image

Image

User avatar
andy10917
Posts: 29739
Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 10:48 pm
Location: NY (Lower Hudson Valley)
Grass Type: Emblem KBG (Front); Blueberry KBG Monostand (Back)
Lawn Size: 1 acre-2 acre
Level: Advanced

Re: Is my soil really that bad or is it me?

Post by andy10917 » June 12th, 2017, 9:55 pm

I just went back and looked at your soil test results and HLG's write-up. Your problem is not your soil. I read other posts of your's and I see a trend to jumping all over the place looking for quick results.

What is it that you thought was going to happen in 11 or 12 weeks?

Casutherland
Posts: 364
Joined: July 4th, 2016, 8:33 pm
Location: Cane Ridge, TN
Grass Type: TTTF
Lawn Size: 1000-3000
Level: Some Experience

Re: Is my soil really that bad or is it me?

Post by Casutherland » June 12th, 2017, 10:03 pm

Well I have felt like things are getting progressively worse instead of better. Shouldnt I at least see some results?

User avatar
MorpheusPA
Posts: 18129
Joined: March 5th, 2009, 7:32 pm
Location: Zone 6 (Eastern PA)
Grass Type: Elite KBG
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Advanced

Re: Is my soil really that bad or is it me?

Post by MorpheusPA » June 13th, 2017, 12:21 am

In three months? Not necessarily, no.

Hand-watering frequently does run off; I was doing some scrubbing out and disinfection of plant trays and doing the initial sop and water rinse out on the lawn. It was definitely running off as I was adding water too fast for even my soil to absorb. That also happens in the garden, and I can dig that with my fingertips (or, with a spade, easily go down 24").

While you may have a disease--I'm bad at ID-ing those, but something's definitely going on there--directly watering your soil normally does cause runoff and it's not at all unusual.

That having been said, if you have a disease, evening watering is a really bad idea. Best-case, the crowns of the grass go into the overnight hours wet, and they're not going to dry out well then. Avoid watering in the evenings when you notice disease pressure, if at all possible.

Organics can take more than 3 months to kick in, although most people'll see at least minor effects sooner than that.

Owlnsr
Posts: 119
Joined: October 28th, 2015, 7:45 am
Location: Central VA
Grass Type: Northern mix
Lawn Size: Not Specified
Level: Not Specified

Re: Is my soil really that bad or is it me?

Post by Owlnsr » June 13th, 2017, 12:21 pm

Just an idea: Do an experiment.

Buy a manual core aerator (they sell them at Lowes... the kind you step on with your feet).

Plug a section of your problem area.

Treat the plugged and the non-plugged section the same.

Observe if the plugs made a difference re: runoff, turf improvement, etc.


Casutherland
Posts: 364
Joined: July 4th, 2016, 8:33 pm
Location: Cane Ridge, TN
Grass Type: TTTF
Lawn Size: 1000-3000
Level: Some Experience

Re: Is my soil really that bad or is it me?

Post by Casutherland » June 13th, 2017, 1:57 pm

MorpheusPA wrote:
June 13th, 2017, 12:21 am
In three months? Not necessarily, no.

Hand-watering frequently does run off; I was doing some scrubbing out and disinfection of plant trays and doing the initial sop and water rinse out on the lawn. It was definitely running off as I was adding water too fast for even my soil to absorb. That also happens in the garden, and I can dig that with my fingertips (or, with a spade, easily go down 24").

While you may have a disease--I'm bad at ID-ing those, but something's definitely going on there--directly watering your soil normally does cause runoff and it's not at all unusual.

That having been said, if you have a disease, evening watering is a really bad idea. Best-case, the crowns of the grass go into the overnight hours wet, and they're not going to dry out well then. Avoid watering in the evenings when you notice disease pressure, if at all possible.

Organics can take more than 3 months to kick in, although most people'll see at least minor effects sooner than that.
Thanks Morph.. So in this regards, the area depicted in the pictures has not been hand watered. I have been watering this area with an oscillating sprinkler for the most part. However, I was just noting in general that my front hell strips had a lot of run off when hand watering, but its good to know I am not alone in this!

I will let my back yard dry out and not water much..We have had some really HOT and dry weather over the past week or so now. Highs during the day have been in the low to mid 90s with dew points in the mid 70s, and over night we are only falling to about 70-71. So not much of a variance there.

Anywho, I will keep at it, and keep you guys up to date!

Casutherland
Posts: 364
Joined: July 4th, 2016, 8:33 pm
Location: Cane Ridge, TN
Grass Type: TTTF
Lawn Size: 1000-3000
Level: Some Experience

Re: Is my soil really that bad or is it me?

Post by Casutherland » June 13th, 2017, 2:00 pm

Owlnsr wrote:
June 13th, 2017, 12:21 pm
Just an idea: Do an experiment.

Buy a manual core aerator (they sell them at Lowes... the kind you step on with your feet).

Plug a section of your problem area.

Treat the plugged and the non-plugged section the same.

Observe if the plugs made a difference re: runoff, turf improvement, etc.
Just went out on my lunch break and bought one of these. I will do exactly as mentioned and see if I am able to tell a difference. I will keep you guys posted on this.

Green
Posts: 6837
Joined: September 14th, 2012, 10:53 pm
Location: CT (Zone 6B)
Grass Type: KBG, TTTF, TTPR, and FF (various mixtures)
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Experienced

Re: Is my soil really that bad or is it me?

Post by Green » June 13th, 2017, 2:48 pm

MorpheusPA wrote:
June 13th, 2017, 12:21 am
Organics can take more than 3 months to kick in, although most people'll see at least minor effects sooner than that.
Hey Morph,

I was reading this thread and noticed that quote. What exactly was it in reference to?

User avatar
PSU4ME
Posts: 1147
Joined: November 29th, 2016, 9:29 am
Location: Metrowest MA
Grass Type: Front: Bewitched/Midnight/Everglade Back: Midnight/Diva/Everest
Lawn Size: 20000-1 acre
Level: Some Experience

Re: Is my soil really that bad or is it me?

Post by PSU4ME » June 13th, 2017, 3:04 pm

So are you thinking that the issue is that you're not getting enough water into the soil? Have you done the screwdriver test? How much thatch do you have?

gave20
Posts: 441
Joined: July 23rd, 2010, 7:25 pm
Location: Saxonburg, PA
Grass Type: tall fescue
Lawn Size: Not Specified
Level: Not Specified

Re: Is my soil really that bad or is it me?

Post by gave20 » June 13th, 2017, 3:51 pm

When I moved to organic, it took two years to really see a difference; especially on the fungal side. it takes time to build a good biological network, something you likely won't see from march till now.

smast16
Posts: 277
Joined: March 31st, 2017, 8:43 am
Location: Kernersville, Nc
Grass Type: Front: TTTF & KBG Back: Salad Bar
Lawn Size: Not Specified
Level: Not Specified

Re: Is my soil really that bad or is it me?

Post by smast16 » June 13th, 2017, 4:04 pm

How much of summer dormancy and stress just par for the course for cool season grasses at this latitude? Can any transition zone peeps chime in?

Casutherland, let me know if that manual aerator helps for you, as i'd be interested in this as well.

Casutherland
Posts: 364
Joined: July 4th, 2016, 8:33 pm
Location: Cane Ridge, TN
Grass Type: TTTF
Lawn Size: 1000-3000
Level: Some Experience

Re: Is my soil really that bad or is it me?

Post by Casutherland » June 13th, 2017, 11:40 pm

PSU4ME wrote:
June 13th, 2017, 3:04 pm
So are you thinking that the issue is that you're not getting enough water into the soil? Have you done the screwdriver test? How much thatch do you have?
No, I think that the water I'm putting down is having multiple effects, depending on the rate at which it is applied. When hand watering, the soil is so compact that it seems to run off quickly. When using an oscillating sprinkler that produces a rain like effect, the water is penetrating the soil, but is sitting in the root zone for too long, possibly causing root rot. I recently transplanted an arborvitae from my back yard beds to my front yard beds. In doing so, I dig down about 7-8 inches to the bae of the root system, and the arborvitaes roots were basically sitting in a puddle of water. It sounded like taking a small child out of the pool.

I do know know exactly what's causing this, but it appears that the soil is not percolating properly. It is very frustrating. I have neighbors down the street for me that water obnoxiously too much and don't have a clue what they are doing, yet their yard looks fantastic. Very very annoying.

Casutherland
Posts: 364
Joined: July 4th, 2016, 8:33 pm
Location: Cane Ridge, TN
Grass Type: TTTF
Lawn Size: 1000-3000
Level: Some Experience

Re: Is my soil really that bad or is it me?

Post by Casutherland » June 13th, 2017, 11:42 pm

smast16 wrote:
June 13th, 2017, 4:04 pm
How much of summer dormancy and stress just par for the course for cool season grasses at this latitude? Can any transition zone peeps chime in?

Casutherland, let me know if that manual aerator helps for you, as i'd be interested in this as well.
Yes sir, I'll will definitely post results. My plan is to do this bi weekly.

User avatar
GeorgiaDad
Posts: 2163
Joined: July 13th, 2011, 2:32 pm
Location: Suwanee, Ga.
Grass Type: Frontyard: Award, NuChicago, Midnight. kbg Backyard: Mutt Fescue with a little Midnight kbg thrown in.
Lawn Size: Not Specified
Level: Not Specified

Re: Is my soil really that bad or is it me?

Post by GeorgiaDad » June 14th, 2017, 9:54 am

smast16 wrote:
June 13th, 2017, 4:04 pm
How much of summer dormancy and stress just par for the course for cool season grasses at this latitude? Can any transition zone peeps chime in?

Casutherland, let me know if that manual aerator helps for you, as i'd be interested in this as well.
I haven't had any summer dormancy. But I water the heck out of my kbg in July and August. In the hottest months. I will water .75" a couple of times a week if we haven't had any rain. Plus spritz the lawn at sundown on those upper 90+ days.

User avatar
MorpheusPA
Posts: 18129
Joined: March 5th, 2009, 7:32 pm
Location: Zone 6 (Eastern PA)
Grass Type: Elite KBG
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Advanced

Re: Is my soil really that bad or is it me?

Post by MorpheusPA » June 14th, 2017, 12:02 pm

Green wrote:
June 13th, 2017, 2:48 pm
MorpheusPA wrote:
June 13th, 2017, 12:21 am
Organics can take more than 3 months to kick in, although most people'll see at least minor effects sooner than that.
Hey Morph,

I was reading this thread and noticed that quote. What exactly was it in reference to?
Eh? Mostly long-term observation; soils take time to adjust, and organic mass takes time to build up.

Green
Posts: 6837
Joined: September 14th, 2012, 10:53 pm
Location: CT (Zone 6B)
Grass Type: KBG, TTTF, TTPR, and FF (various mixtures)
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Experienced

Re: Is my soil really that bad or is it me?

Post by Green » June 14th, 2017, 12:29 pm

So, organic fertilizing...not organic disease prevention. Wasn't sure which you were talking about.

I converted to mostly organic fertilizing over a period of several years.

User avatar
HoosierLawnGnome
Posts: 9591
Joined: May 22nd, 2013, 5:59 pm
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana
Grass Type: Blueberry KBG
Lawn Size: 1 acre-2 acre
Level: Advanced

Re: Is my soil really that bad or is it me?

Post by HoosierLawnGnome » June 14th, 2017, 12:46 pm

As Andy corroborated, your soil is NOT the problem - I would love to trade you!

I see a little disease, some summer stress, and floppy turf.

Your post and question from April:
I was out in the yard yesterday, and based on observation and a little advice from a few local companies. I believe the issue that I am having is that my grass is so thick, and the roots so close, that is it not able to breath and is essentially getting choked out. I do not think that it is a fungus at all. We received about 6-7 inches of rain over this past weekend, and the yard is a deep/dark green. From a distance it looks SUPER healthy and great. However, when you get up close, you can see the damage in the thatch layer down below the thick dark grass blades. It appears that the grass is turning yellow first, and then dying.
Comparing this post with what's above, I think you're seeing the pressure on your turf progress as summer ramps up, you just need to figure out what works for a transition zone lawn growing cool season turf. Your lawn is young, so it's ESPECIALLY disease prone the first year - it's going to be rough.

Re-read GD's post - see how he is adjusting his practices for what works in warm season zones? He is not "following the 'rules' to a t".
GeorgiaDad wrote:
June 14th, 2017, 9:54 am
I haven't had any summer dormancy. But I water the heck out of my kbg in July and August. In the hottest months. I will water .75" a couple of times a week if we haven't had any rain. Plus spritz the lawn at sundown on those upper 90+ days.
*gasp* GD is violating the 1" a week all at once rule!!! OMG OMG OMG :lol: Well, it's a guideline. He's growing cool season turf in a warm season area - probably 1 in 100,000 lawns. You're growing fescue / KBG in TN, you're not as extreme - but look at more local lawns to you like nclawnguy from 2015 and what they regularly do - the watering is more frequent and heavier, while the fungus prevention program is more important and uses chemical fungicides.

What good will poking holes in your turf for roots to grow into do if the roots won't grow anyways due to soil temperatures? Root growth shuts down @ 77 degree soil temps for cool season grasses and doesn't wake back up until 70 degrees really

Don't worry about getting EXACTLY the right fungus identified. Find out the top three and pick something that will hit them all. Brown Patch? Dollar spot? leaf spot? Red thread? Eagle. Propicanizole may work well for you too. Fungicides don't hurt your grass like herbicides really - you can apply one and if it isn't working, apply something else too - without worrying much about overstressing turf.

I've done 3 renovations for cool season turf in central Indiana and needed fungicide for them every time the spring after, and that's 5 hours north of you.

smast16
Posts: 277
Joined: March 31st, 2017, 8:43 am
Location: Kernersville, Nc
Grass Type: Front: TTTF & KBG Back: Salad Bar
Lawn Size: Not Specified
Level: Not Specified

Re: Is my soil really that bad or is it me?

Post by smast16 » June 14th, 2017, 12:52 pm

GeorgiaDad wrote:
June 14th, 2017, 9:54 am
smast16 wrote:
June 13th, 2017, 4:04 pm
How much of summer dormancy and stress just par for the course for cool season grasses at this latitude? Can any transition zone peeps chime in?

Casutherland, let me know if that manual aerator helps for you, as i'd be interested in this as well.
I haven't had any summer dormancy. But I water the heck out of my kbg in July and August. In the hottest months. I will water .75" a couple of times a week if we haven't had any rain. Plus spritz the lawn at sundown on those upper 90+ days.
Do you get decent shade in the afternoon from the trees in your pictures? The part of my yard that goes dormant first is the part that gets no help from shade. It just bakes out there.

User avatar
jmlrugby
Posts: 85
Joined: June 21st, 2016, 10:25 am
Location: Phoenix,AZ
Grass Type: TTTF Blend/HKBG+Midnight
Lawn Size: 3000-5000
Level: Some Experience

Re: Is my soil really that bad or is it me?

Post by jmlrugby » June 14th, 2017, 2:09 pm

Have you inspected the nominal root depth of these plants, most notably in the trouble areas? If the roots aren't able to reach a depth where the temperature is naturally cooler, you're fighting against the beast.

Casutherland
Posts: 364
Joined: July 4th, 2016, 8:33 pm
Location: Cane Ridge, TN
Grass Type: TTTF
Lawn Size: 1000-3000
Level: Some Experience

Re: Is my soil really that bad or is it me?

Post by Casutherland » June 14th, 2017, 7:05 pm

HoosierLawnGnome wrote:
June 14th, 2017, 12:46 pm
As Andy corroborated, your soil is NOT the problem - I would love to trade you!

I see a little disease, some summer stress, and floppy turf.

Your post and question from April:
I was out in the yard yesterday, and based on observation and a little advice from a few local companies. I believe the issue that I am having is that my grass is so thick, and the roots so close, that is it not able to breath and is essentially getting choked out. I do not think that it is a fungus at all. We received about 6-7 inches of rain over this past weekend, and the yard is a deep/dark green. From a distance it looks SUPER healthy and great. However, when you get up close, you can see the damage in the thatch layer down below the thick dark grass blades. It appears that the grass is turning yellow first, and then dying.
Comparing this post with what's above, I think you're seeing the pressure on your turf progress as summer ramps up, you just need to figure out what works for a transition zone lawn growing cool season turf. Your lawn is young, so it's ESPECIALLY disease prone the first year - it's going to be rough.

Re-read GD's post - see how he is adjusting his practices for what works in warm season zones? He is not "following the 'rules' to a t".
GeorgiaDad wrote:
June 14th, 2017, 9:54 am
I haven't had any summer dormancy. But I water the heck out of my kbg in July and August. In the hottest months. I will water .75" a couple of times a week if we haven't had any rain. Plus spritz the lawn at sundown on those upper 90+ days.
*gasp* GD is violating the 1" a week all at once rule!!! OMG OMG OMG :lol: Well, it's a guideline. He's growing cool season turf in a warm season area - probably 1 in 100,000 lawns. You're growing fescue / KBG in TN, you're not as extreme - but look at more local lawns to you like nclawnguy from 2015 and what they regularly do - the watering is more frequent and heavier, while the fungus prevention program is more important and uses chemical fungicides.

What good will poking holes in your turf for roots to grow into do if the roots won't grow anyways due to soil temperatures? Root growth shuts down @ 77 degree soil temps for cool season grasses and doesn't wake back up until 70 degrees really

Don't worry about getting EXACTLY the right fungus identified. Find out the top three and pick something that will hit them all. Brown Patch? Dollar spot? leaf spot? Red thread? Eagle. Propicanizole may work well for you too. Fungicides don't hurt your grass like herbicides really - you can apply one and if it isn't working, apply something else too - without worrying much about overstressing turf.

I've done 3 renovations for cool season turf in central Indiana and needed fungicide for them every time the spring after, and that's 5 hours north of you.
Thank you for reaching out HLG..I think I am going to order some Propiconazole for starts, and maybe water a little less in the back for the time being. I am trying to come up with the best possible way to approach this. I have dumped so much money into things that I am seeing little to no result from. Actually some of my problems are worse this year than they have ever been in the past. I am getting so frustrated with it all that I am debating on going back with my lawn maintenance people. I just feel like after 3 months of being "by the books" I should be seeing some kind of results. Instead, I am seeing my lawn die right before my eyes. Just a quick walk through and I see a lot of dead thatch/leasions on the blades of the grass. I have been bagging my grass for almost 3 months because I am afraid of creating too much dead.

I spent $2600 on sod for my yard, and so far hundreds of thousands of hours working to make it the best. It kills me that I cannot see any results from the hard work(if anything it is going in the opposite direction). I am just going to keep trusting that the things I do will eventually start to show.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests