OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Kentucky bluegrass, Fescue, Rye and Bent, etc
User avatar
andy10917
Posts: 29739
Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 10:48 pm
Location: NY (Lower Hudson Valley)
Grass Type: Emblem KBG (Front); Blueberry KBG Monostand (Back)
Lawn Size: 1 acre-2 acre
Level: Advanced

Re: OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Post by andy10917 » May 1st, 2021, 6:57 pm

That said, there are some varieties of Triv that Certainly apparently cannot touch.
What are those "varieties", and please provide the reference/link for those types.

Masbustelo
Posts: 488
Joined: September 14th, 2018, 10:56 pm
Location: Western Illinois, parallel to tip o Lake Michigan.
Grass Type: Mazama KBG
Lawn Size: 20000-1 acre
Level: Some Experience

Re: OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Post by Masbustelo » May 1st, 2021, 7:59 pm

These are a very fine-bladed, low-growing, yellow-green variety or varieties of Triv, which masquerade as fine fescues to the untrained eye or casual glance (but if you look at it very carefully, there is not much resemblance at all to FF). Green I have some of this plant in my yard. What it is and does it respond to certainty? I do not know. It is very shallow rooted and easy to pull.

Green
Posts: 6837
Joined: September 14th, 2012, 10:53 pm
Location: CT (Zone 6B)
Grass Type: KBG, TTTF, TTPR, and FF (various mixtures)
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Experienced

Re: OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Post by Green » May 1st, 2021, 8:51 pm

Guys,

I don't know that different varieties of Triv are "named" (beyond some named commercial "turf" cultivars--used for warm-season golf course overseeding, etc.).

I do not know whether any of these fine-bladed varieties in my yard are named varieties or not, because I never intentionally/knowingly purchased such seed. As you know, it only takes relatively few Triv seeds in a bag of KBG or another grass type to start an infestation.

It is most definitely Triv (or a related Poa species, if not). It is absolutely not Poa annua. I have never seen Poa Supina in person, so I can't 100% say it's not that...but morphologically it looks like the standard Poa Triv, just much more compact and super fine-bladed. And I mean *much finer* and much more compact. It rarely ever gets tall (but I don't let it, so I can't use height to distinguish it). It produces the standard light green patches visible from a distance. I had a professional lawn guy mistake it for fine fescue, too, some years ago. You would be forgiven for thinking it was that unless you looked really carefully at it (but when you do, you see that it's light green-yellow, has no characteristic fescue veins, and has all the other standard Triv characteristics, just shrunken down on a smaller scale. This stuff is bad, because it can go hidden under your turf canopy, and then pop up and form a patch at random. The only person who correctly identified both types (coarse and fine types of Triv) as Triv was someone at the state experimental station. He actually let it grow a seedhead in order to verify what it was.

Now, I don't know if this type is resistant to Certainty, or if the NIS just can't stick to the finer blade to penetrate it. It yellowed it partially, but never killed it. Any ideas for another type of surfactant to try?

User avatar
MorpheusPA
Posts: 18129
Joined: March 5th, 2009, 7:32 pm
Location: Zone 6 (Eastern PA)
Grass Type: Elite KBG
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Advanced

Re: OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Post by MorpheusPA » May 1st, 2021, 10:01 pm

There are bred varieties of triv for wetter, part-sun areas. They're actually not bad looking if you like triv, which I don't, and still have that chartreuse color that I don't particularly care for.

To my knowledge, even the bred versions are still susceptible to all the herbicides that regular triv will respond to.

Fun Fact: If you combine Jacquard's Emerald Green (1 part), Navy Blue (1 part), and just some Daffodil Yellow (1/2 part), you get a color not unlike Midnight II bluegrass. I now have three shirts exactly that color.

Green
Posts: 6837
Joined: September 14th, 2012, 10:53 pm
Location: CT (Zone 6B)
Grass Type: KBG, TTTF, TTPR, and FF (various mixtures)
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Experienced

Re: OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Post by Green » May 1st, 2021, 10:55 pm

[quote=MorpheusPA post_id=346885 time=1619920874 user_id=112]
To my knowledge, even the bred versions are still susceptible to all the herbicides that regular triv will respond to.
[/quote]

If anything, the finer ones are even yellower. (Some of the coarser ones in my yard actually respond to N pretty well, by darkening a good amount, in my experience.)

It's possible I'm either doing something wrong, or that those varieties are the more persistent ones, especially in the more damp, shaded areas...or that it's actually the conditions, rather than the biotype, that's causing the herbicide to not work as well on them. (It browned it, partially, or mostly...but never fully.)

It very well could have been the high soil moisture in the area that reduced the control. You're in luck. I have some of the fine-bladed Triv in the sunnier, dryer areas, too (right near the coarser varieties). I've been killing them with Roundup when I see them, but will save a couple of patches and try the Certainty on them.


User avatar
MorpheusPA
Posts: 18129
Joined: March 5th, 2009, 7:32 pm
Location: Zone 6 (Eastern PA)
Grass Type: Elite KBG
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Advanced

Re: OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Post by MorpheusPA » May 2nd, 2021, 2:57 am

I'd say try increasing the surfactant a bit (doubling it isn't usually a problem, although more isn't always better--but double isn't a problem that I've ever noticed). I almost always increase surfactant amounts and reduce the herbicide usage as the increased surfactant tends to increase the effectiveness.

Yep, triv (and annua) will strongly prefer damper areas. Which is another reason for my luck with them--I don't really have damp areas on my property. During summer, everything goes bone dry, even the swale.

Green
Posts: 6837
Joined: September 14th, 2012, 10:53 pm
Location: CT (Zone 6B)
Grass Type: KBG, TTTF, TTPR, and FF (various mixtures)
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Experienced

Re: OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Post by Green » May 11th, 2021, 2:01 pm

Update: Did the deed (app 1) on my No-mix ysterday even though you're not really supposed to unless you're ok accepting losses. Not a big deal, because based on my past experience with this stuff, I can always overseed in August if needed. I'd rather kill the Triv and have to reseed than not kill it.

In other news, there is actually a new (for 2020) brand of Sulfosulfuron (it may be a branded generic). The specs appear equivalent to Certainty. It is called "Sertay", and the label is almost identical to the original label that used to come with Certainty (it has cool season turf use listed on it). it appears to be approved already in a handful of states, but I haven't seen it for sale yet. I have seen other products by Atticus for sale though (such as Trinexapac-ethyl, which I actually purchased).

pbarlin
Posts: 1
Joined: June 14th, 2021, 10:22 pm
Location: Long Island, NY
Grass Type: KBG, TTTF
Lawn Size: Not Specified
Level: Not Specified

Re: OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Post by pbarlin » June 15th, 2021, 10:57 am

Masbustelo wrote:
May 1st, 2021, 7:59 pm
These are a very fine-bladed, low-growing, yellow-green variety or varieties of Triv, which masquerade as fine fescues to the untrained eye or casual glance (but if you look at it very carefully, there is not much resemblance at all to FF). Green I have some of this plant in my yard. What it is and does it respond to certainty? I do not know. It is very shallow rooted and easy to pull.
I have this fine bladed triv and it is driving me crazy! Really do not want to nuke my lawn.

northeastlawn
Posts: 1259
Joined: June 1st, 2015, 3:10 pm
Location: S.E. Mass.
Grass Type: KBG
Lawn Size: 1000-3000
Level: Experienced

Re: OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Post by northeastlawn » June 15th, 2021, 2:06 pm

[quote=pbarlin post_id=347897 time=1623769076 user_id=10474]
I have this fine bladed triv and it is driving me crazy! Really do not want to nuke my lawn.
[/quote]

If it’s really triv, nuking the whole lawn wouldn’t kill it off right now anyway. We just came off an early heat wave, about a week in the 80’s and low 90’s. I noticed a bunch of poa-a already hurting. Which leads me to think that it might be too late to go after triv with glysophate.

Masbustelo
Posts: 488
Joined: September 14th, 2018, 10:56 pm
Location: Western Illinois, parallel to tip o Lake Michigan.
Grass Type: Mazama KBG
Lawn Size: 20000-1 acre
Level: Some Experience

Re: OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Post by Masbustelo » June 15th, 2021, 2:25 pm

My experience...THIS SPRING...was that the fine bladed trivialis was very easy to kill with repeated applications of Tenacity. I emphasized this spring because I don't know how it would respond now. Most of my trivialis went into hiding as soon as the recent heat wave came. I have no experience with Certainty.

User avatar
MorpheusPA
Posts: 18129
Joined: March 5th, 2009, 7:32 pm
Location: Zone 6 (Eastern PA)
Grass Type: Elite KBG
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Advanced

Re: OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Post by MorpheusPA » June 15th, 2021, 5:33 pm

My usual experience is that triv really doesn't like Tenacity. But...well, as I repeatedly say, I use soft water, add extra surfactant, and do enhance my Tenacity in ways I don't really recommend for those who don't completely respect the process and safety. That last step is completely optional and not required.

It tends to drop and die in 1 or 2 shots at most, done quite lightly.

Green
Posts: 6837
Joined: September 14th, 2012, 10:53 pm
Location: CT (Zone 6B)
Grass Type: KBG, TTTF, TTPR, and FF (various mixtures)
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Experienced

Re: OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Post by Green » June 23rd, 2021, 5:16 pm

I found the passage from the thesis that backs up my observations about differential sensitivity of various Poa Trivialis varieties to Sulfosulfuron with evidence from scientific literature. Here is the quote:

"Preliminary studies show that sulfosulfuron efficacy may be cultivar dependent (Reicher
and Weisenberger, 2005). In 2004, fourteen samples of roughstalk bluegrass were collected from
golf courses around the state of Indiana (Reicher and Weisenberger, 2005). These samples were
treated with sulfosulfuron at 13 or 27 g a.i. ha-1 applied three times on a three week interval once
established (Reicher and Weisenberger, 2005). Cultivars responded in one of three ways
including decreased cover as rate of sulfosulfuron increased, decreased cover from both rates with
little difference in effect between rates, or little to no response to sulfosulfuron (Reicher and
Weisenberger, 2005)." -Morton, 2008

Green
Posts: 6837
Joined: September 14th, 2012, 10:53 pm
Location: CT (Zone 6B)
Grass Type: KBG, TTTF, TTPR, and FF (various mixtures)
Lawn Size: 10000-20000
Level: Experienced

Re: OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Post by Green » October 6th, 2021, 2:28 am

There were follow up studies as well:

"Our preliminary studies have shown that there are differences in cultivar sensitivity to sulfosulfuron (Morton and Reicher, 2007). The cultivar of rough bluegrass used in Indiana in both years was ‘Laser’, which our work shows is less sensitive to sulfosulfuron than other cultivars (Morton and Reicher, 2007)." -Morton, Reicher, et. al, 2007

This makes me think the fine-bladed Triv is indeed likely to be an improved cultivar.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 31 guests