OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Kentucky bluegrass, Fescue, Rye and Bent, etc
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andy10917
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OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Post by andy10917 » July 4th, 2017, 12:05 pm

I decided that my Backyard Poa Triv problem (Front Yard was a 6-year war) was potentially worse than I thought and "went to the Box of Death" (Certainty on Cool-Season). I'm now in the middle of Certainly Certainty Syndrome.

I'm curious - who else was/is using it this year, at what rate and what results? When was the first app?

Please ignore this thread if you're not using it this year...

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Re: OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Post by kbgfarmer » July 4th, 2017, 12:32 pm

Still haven't had the guts to apply it. Was thinking doing it soon at the .5 oz/acre rate as the authors of the certainty quackgrass trial had success with one early July application of certainty in Iowa in the mid to late 2000s. Like Andy I would be interested to see others who have applied its experiences with it for both trivialis and quackgrass control.

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Re: OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Post by Green » July 4th, 2017, 1:41 pm

I'm going to be following this thread, but not really commenting. I might have a question or two for you people at some point just because I'm curious. Personally, I'm using Velocity, and right in the middle of something similar at this point (though I haven't thought of a good name for it yet).

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Re: OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Post by gave20 » July 4th, 2017, 3:14 pm

I've been spot spraying at the low rate (3 small scoops per gallon) and my best results have actually been a tank mix of certainty and tenacity. I would do a follow up spray 14 days later. where I applied just certainty I have triv coming back.

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Re: OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Post by edenl01 » July 4th, 2017, 9:20 pm

Targeted pest: quack grass, rhizomatus grassy weeds.

1st app was May 11
Some quack began to discolor and die. No clorosis noticed. Stunting was apparent.

2nd app May 31

Noticeable discoloration and stunted growth in KGB. Noticed 50-70% kill rates on targeted weeds. The end result was some dead quack, very little dead kbg and some big "holes" to patch this fall.

Rate was .5 oz per acre.

I do think that the very cool weather during the 1st app and almost drought during 2nd app did factor in on the end result.


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Re: OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Post by andy10917 » July 4th, 2017, 9:42 pm

First of all, I think that some of the replies suggest people believe that I'm considering a Certainty app. Hell no - I'm staring at it doing its thing. Raked out some dead Triv in a patch today to see what KBG is left in there.

Gave20: no insult intended, but I'm wondering where the rates and advice to use Certainty on TTTF came from. The "old" (2008) label for Certainty clearly said that three small scoops is the 0.75 rate (not a low rate), and Section 9.2.3 of the label clearly says that the 0.75 rate is intended to kill TTTF.

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Re: OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Post by gave20 » July 5th, 2017, 4:20 pm

it's the lesser of two evils... I'll sacrifice some fescue to control triv since I have really good luck with kbg filling in the spots that die back. to be honest velocity is the only thing I've found to really knock out triv, but the spray timing makes it a pain plus it can wreak havoc on kbg.

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Re: OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Post by Green » July 5th, 2017, 4:59 pm

When using an herbicide to target Triv, do you guys find mechanical removal to be important or advantageous because of the stolons?

I don't really want to go tearing up the brown spots and exposing bare soil this time of year...

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Re: OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Post by TimmyG » July 5th, 2017, 5:08 pm

Gave20, your signature makes no mention of KBG, just TTTF, which is why Andy called you out on using Certainty. If you do have KBG, you should update your grass type.

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Re: OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Post by andy10917 » July 5th, 2017, 5:29 pm

When using an herbicide to target Triv, do you guys find mechanical removal to be important or advantageous because of the stolons?

I don't really want to go tearing up the brown spots and exposing bare soil this time of year...
I'm not getting your point - are you asking if mechanical removal on top of the herbicide is required, or if mechanical removal is a viable alternative to herbicides when battling Triv?

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Re: OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Post by Green » July 5th, 2017, 7:48 pm

No, not if it's an alternative to herbicides. But, is it helpful or detrimental in general based on your experience? Any harm in leaving the "dead" Triv where it is until it breaks down?

The issue I see is that the stolons can be there still, dormant, after the foliage is killed by the herbicide. At the same time, I'm not looking to disturb the soil and create pockets with no grass this time of year...or disturb the soil so weeds grow.

I'm kind of torn on this issue...no pun intended.

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Re: OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Post by andy10917 » July 5th, 2017, 8:23 pm

My experience is the standard consultant answer: it depends.

My experience is that you have Triv long before you know you have Triv. It seems like it pops up out of almost nowhere, but I can locate deep interwoven Triv in a lawn many weeks before it suddenly is growing higher than the lawn, by using a diagnostic dose of Tenacity.

I much prefer to rake the Certainty-killed dead Triv out of the larger spots it was in, as it allows the surviving KBG to begin spreading, and the outer edges growing in. Recovery is faster.

And while I agree that ugly brown spots aren't pretty, they are far better than much larger lime-green spots the following year. And I'm pretty convinced those are the only two options. I was busy with my sons' properties last year and gave the Triv I had a half-hearted effort at control. When I got serious this year, I could have barfed at the amount of spread that had occur (much was still hidden).

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Re: OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Post by Green » July 5th, 2017, 11:56 pm

Great answer, Andy.
Personally, since I have a mixed lawn, I'm not going rake this time of year (bad experiences in the past). I'll make a judgement call as I observe over the next 8 weeks if I want to rake and overseed with more TTTF or just rake.

You know how in a week or so, Tenacity has turned a bunch of stuff white? I consider that a powerful kick.

Velocity is different...it's more like you're spraying water...magic water that starts making things slowly burn over time. It doesn't have a lot of "kick" to it.

How is Certainty in terms of the"kick" it has?

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Re: OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Post by dave42 » July 10th, 2017, 1:48 pm

I am one of those brave/dumb people. April was so warm that I had to start my air conditioning, so I applied a blanket spray to the entire yard at .5 oz/acre on April 29. I divided the lawn using stakes and string, and used only Bonide Super Spreader Sticker and no tracker dye. I applied the second blanket spray at 5 weeks due to a vacation, and "spot" applied a stripe across the front yard a couple of weeks after the second application. Yet the Triv laughs at me while my northern mix turns brown. It doesn't help that this has turned out to be an exceptionally wet and cool spring and summer. Perfect growing season.

It's getting hard to explain this to other people. The day I sprayed the first application, I literally had people stop and comment on how nice and green my lawn was after the fall nitrogen regimen.

The depressing pictures are in my "Dave's 2016 Poa Plan" thread.

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Re: OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Post by andy10917 » July 10th, 2017, 10:04 pm

Dave, you may be making timing errors that explain (or partially explain) your results , or lack thereof...

I'm seeing more evidence that backs up Zac Reicher's opinion that the season for effective Certainty use is June to August. Success seems related to how many clusters of 85+ degree weather days there are during that period.

The 5-week gap between apps basically means recovery is full, and you're starting over again from scratch. Yeah, we all go on vacations, but a broken regimen with recovery is what it is, despite the good reasons for it...

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Re: OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Post by dave42 » July 13th, 2017, 9:03 am

I guess this is not the year to kill Triv in western NY. We had one week of mid-80's in mid-June, but the highest temperature in the forecast is 80 degrees during the last week of July. I hope my Certainty applications have at least slowed down the spread of this cancer.

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Re: OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Post by Leifcat1 » August 15th, 2017, 7:18 pm

I realize the stress that Certainty can put on a KBG lawn but does anyone have any experiences using it for Quack around sidewalk edges? Any chance that the visual effect would be minimized in this type of application?

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Re: OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Post by andy10917 » August 15th, 2017, 7:40 pm

I don't think it matters what the target is - the "side-effect" of KBG ugliness is consistent in all KBG applications.

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Re: OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Post by wis99ski » April 23rd, 2021, 12:33 pm

Breaking out the Certainty this year. I didn’t have a chance to keep a strong regime last year and I knew this spring was going to be brutal based on what the fall looked like. No POA Cure on the horizon and I am past the point of not wanting brown or stressed lawn in the middle of prime spring/early summer. It doesn’t matter anymore and I can’t nuke the whole thing and start over.

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Re: OK, so who was brave/dumb enough to use Certainty?

Post by Green » May 1st, 2021, 4:45 pm

Used it successfully (80% or better control) last year on one area. It increased the drought stress of the KBG to the point that it all easily went dormant in the Summer heat. But it readily recovered in August, and was back to normal by October like nothing had happened (except the Triv was controlled well).

That said, there are some varieties of Triv that Certainly apparently cannot touch. I may experiment with a surfactant change to see if I can get control on them. But it did not phase them with the standard NIS...even after an extra application beyond the two recommended. These are a very fine-bladed, low-growing, yellow-green variety or varieties of Triv, which masquerade as fine fescues to the untrained eye or casual glance (but if you look at it very carefully, there is not much resemblance at all to FF).

The really coarse-leaved Triv (which I call pasture varieties) seem to be controlled readily by Certainty.

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