Advice needed: Award or midnight for northern Indiana?

[MfanIN]

Hi all, first post here but have browsed through much of the forum in the past week.

I'm renovating a half acre of yard that has some sort of fine/chewing fescue and other junk in it. I tired overseeding with blue sapphire kbg three years back and the lawn has spiraled downhill with fungal problems since. My hired lawn service guy claims I have red thread- which has been treated for three times this year. It has helped take care of the issue, but is quite expensive for the long haul- and keeps coming back every few weeks. Recently, I've gotten a huge stripe of brown across my lawn- blobs of yellow that seemed to follow a runoff path through the back yard. Grass guy thinks it is dollar spot. Treated for it very early but it spread massively after the treatment. I've included photos below. Also- the grass won't stand up straight, has terrible traffic tolerance, cut quality, and color (i estimate there is always between 30-60% of it yellow.

I had a soil test earlier this year and results are attached in the image. The fungal infections are shown as well. The lawn service guy has changed his fertilization formula slightly- and I started mulching and side discharging a month ago. It did not prevent the next round of fungal infection.



I gave up trying to save the lawn and had round up sprayed. The lawn service that will replant seed will loosen the soil (I've scalped it already) and slit seed. He wanted to use a kbg / rye blend. He's never done full kbg. After reading the forums, I am leaning towards full kbg with a compact, America and compact midnight. Williams and pawnee butte are out of everything that the forum has recommended except prosperity. I ordered 30 lbs of it.

My questions for the forum:

How many pounds of seed to be safe, slit seeding 15,000 sq ft of yard? My lawn guy wants 100 (estimated 125 initially)- which seems outrageous for 3lb/ 1000 sq ft advice. I do want several pound left over to deal with spots in the spring.

Second question: thoughts about things to do to help with soil test report?

Third question: what kbg is ideal for north central Indiana- with sandy soil (and a few inches topsoil when the grass was planted a decade ago). I was leaning towards prosperity, bewitched and midnight. But recently found award to have better red thread and a few other disease resistance than midnight.

Does one of my pictures look like summer patch (or dollar spot)? Award has reduced resistance to summer patch compared to midnight, and the other two selections aren't great with it either. I've spent many hours with NTEP- but can't make up my mind. Thought maybe someone familiar with the humidity and other weather / soil knowledge of Indiana would be able to chin in.

I'm forced to go with sss or the other overpriced vendor- but not much choice since the grass is already killed.

Thanks,

James

[1977212]

Do you have a irrigation system?

[MfanIN]

Good question- forgot to put that detail in. Yes- irrigate twice weekly for 45 minutes per section. Admittedly have not set tuna cans out to measure the amount of water. I also use a rust preventer in the water- used to use rid o rust, switched to 'Unrust' the spring of year the fungal infections started.

The season was wet early on- so did not irrigate at all. The fungal infections started before I began watering this season- while it was still raining significantly.

[STL]

Hi all, first post here but have browsed through much of the forum in the past week.

I'm renovating a half acre of yard that has some sort of fine/chewing fescue and other junk in it. I tired overseeding with blue sapphire kbg three years back and the lawn has spiraled downhill with fungal problems since. My hired lawn service guy claims I have red thread- which has been treated for three times this year. It has helped take care of the issue, but is quite expensive for the long haul- and keeps coming back every few weeks. Recently, I've gotten a huge stripe of brown across my lawn- blobs of yellow that seemed to follow a runoff path through the back yard. Grass guy thinks it is dollar spot. Treated for it very early but it spread massively after the treatment. I've included photos below. Also- the grass won't stand up straight, has terrible traffic tolerance, cut quality, and color (i estimate there is always between 30-60% of it yellow.

I had a soil test earlier this year and results are attached in the image. The fungal infections are shown as well. The lawn service guy has changed his fertilization formula slightly- and I started mulching and side discharging a month ago. It did not prevent the next round of fungal infection.



I gave up trying to save the lawn and had round up sprayed. The lawn service that will replant seed will loosen the soil (I've scalped it already) and slit seed. He wanted to use a kbg / rye blend. He's never done full kbg. After reading the forums, I am leaning towards full kbg with a compact, America and compact midnight. Williams and pawnee butte are out of everything that the forum has recommended except prosperity. I ordered 30 lbs of it.

My questions for the forum:

How many pounds of seed to be safe, slit seeding 15,000 sq ft of yard? My lawn guy wants 100 (estimated 125 initially)- which seems outrageous for 3lb/ 1000 sq ft advice. I do want several pound left over to deal with spots in the spring.

Second question: thoughts about things to do to help with soil test report?

Third question: what kbg is ideal for north central Indiana- with sandy soil (and a few inches topsoil when the grass was planted a decade ago). I was leaning towards prosperity, bewitched and midnight. But recently found award to have better red thread and a few other disease resistance than midnight.

Does one of my pictures look like summer patch (or dollar spot)? Award has reduced resistance to summer patch compared to midnight, and the other two selections aren't great with it either. I've spent many hours with NTEP- but can't make up my mind. Thought maybe someone familiar with the humidity and other weather / soil knowledge of Indiana would be able to chin in.

I'm forced to go with sss or the other overpriced vendor- but not much choice since the grass is already killed.

Thanks,

James

Welcome! Sounds like you are heading in the right direction. I'll toss in my two cents to try and help get things going.

1. Seeding rate is 2-3 lbs/k for kbg. Don't know if that changes for slit seeding or not. I'd guess no though. Perhaps he's thinking of the rye/kbg on the 100lbs?

2. Get a soil test from Logan labs and have the soil experts interpret for you. Best $20-$30 you can spend on your overall plan.

3. Those three cultivars are used by many around here and will look great. Midnights generally are more similar than they are different and I think you would be hard pressed to notice much of a difference between those two. I'd go with whichever is easier to get/cheaper.

4. From my screen, yes, that looks like it could be summer patch or dollar spot. See above on the midnights. Both do well year after year on ntep and either will be good. I went with blue velvet, bewitched, and mazama but wouldn't have thought twice about going with what you listed.

Get that seed ordered while you still can. That'll let you focus on the harder stuff coming up too.

Just curios, what did your lawn guy mean by loosen the soil?

[Jackpine]

Regarding the soil report. You can ignore their recommendations on 12-12-12 and 0-0-60. Those are for incorporating into the soil ie, tilling in to a depth of 6". For surface application the amounts are smaller and more often. Also, don't combine 12-12-12 with 0-0-60 as you will end up applying way to much Potassium and although harder to find, 0-0-50 is a much preferable source of Potassium.

You could apply 12-12-12 to solve the low Phosphorous and Potassium levels at the same time or 0-0-50 to work on the Potassium levels only, but not both.

[ken-n-nancy]

How many pounds of seed to be safe, slit seeding 15,000 sq ft of yard? My lawn guy wants 100 (estimated 125 initially)- which seems outrageous for 3lb/ 1000 sq ft advice. I do want several pound left over to deal with spots in the spring.

The seeding rate will depend on what is seeded. Kentucky bluegrass seeds are *tiny*. For only KBG, 3lbs/1000sq feet is generous. However, for a ryegrass/KBG mix, your lawn guy's suggested rate of about 7#/K is about typical, as ryegrass seeds are downright huge in comparison to KBG seeds. See Purdue's website for more information regarding your part of the country: Establishing Turfgrass Areas From Seed.

Second question: thoughts about things to do to help with soil test report?

Thanks for posting your soil test. In order to do a really good interpretation, it's important to understand the techniques used by the particular lab in order to properly interpret the numbers. Accordingly, the ST6 folks here limit their interpretations to specific labs with which they are familiar. Right now, Logan Labs is the only lab on that list, so if you seek an expert interpretation you'll need to get a Logan Labs test performed as described in the topic for Posting A Soil Test for Interpretation.

However, I understand the disappointment on not having performed the right kind of test to get advice here as a new member. I made that mistake a few years ago, too. Accordingly, I'm game to provide my opinion to you, but it's not an official ST6 soil test interpretation. Rather, it will be more of the form of assistance in understanding what your lab's soil test says and recommends.

Alas, it looks like the photo you took of your soil test has the right side of it clipped off. Can you repost the full image? With the image I'm looking at, it's not possible to see the lab's interpretation of their levels for anything that's above "low." Understanding their raw numbers directly would require a lot more understanding of the lab's specific testing methodology, as I mention above.

Third question: what kbg is ideal for north central Indiana- with sandy soil (and a few inches topsoil when the grass was planted a decade ago). I was leaning towards prosperity, bewitched and midnight. But recently found award to have better red thread and a few other disease resistance than midnight.

I'll have to pass on this question, as I don't have much experience with Indiana soil and microclimate. However, I have prosperity and bewitched in our lawn and appreciate some aspects of both of them. They both have excellent color. The prosperity does great from spring through fall as long as it gets enough sun. The bewitched tolerates the shade much better, but is very slow to wake up in the spring.

[ken-n-nancy]

... Potassium and although harder to find, 0-0-50 is a much preferable source of Potassium.

I'd also like to echo Jackpine's recommendation to use 0-0-50 (sulfate of potash) instead of 0-0-60 (muriate of potash).

A little background...

There are two primary fertilizers for potassium: muriate of potash (0-0-60), and sulfate of potash (0-0-50). Of these, sulfate of potash is significantly less harsh on the lawn, having a significantly lower "salt index" than muriate of potash, which is often considered to be downright harsh. I'd highly recommend the sulfate of potash.

Sulfate of potash (0-0-50) is more difficult to find than muriate of potash (0-0-60); I'd suggest starting to look for a local source to buy a 50-pound bag of Sulfate of Potash (potassium sulfate). It will be marked with a breakdown 0-0-50.

You'll need to find either a farm-supply company (like Crop Production Services) or garden specialty store for the product, but it'll be well worth it! It shouldn't cost more than about $25 for a 50-pound bag, and quite possibly less than that.

For more suggestions, do a search here on the forums for "Sulfate of Potash" and you'll find various threads like this one...

Lastly, I should also mention that due to increased snow mold risk in northern lawns from significant potassium applications in late fall, I'd suggest no potassium applications after early September (whether provided by muriate of potash or sulfate of potash.)

[MfanIN]

Wow- great thoughts everyone. I did end up purchasing prosperity, award and bewitched. Will advise my lawn installer to use 3lbs per 1000 and save the leftover. I have 80 lbs of seed coming for 15,000 sq ft. May have leftover to sell- and store.

I Included the entire soil analysis report for a new lawn. I will be sure to use the best lab for the next report.

So much to learn- I'll try and figure out the potassium for next year- getting a bit late and don't want to start a fungal problem.

Exciting times- can't wait to see how the lawn turns out. I'll post some pictures in progress.

Again, thanks all!

James

[greenrebellion]

I did end up purchasing prosperity, award and bewitched.

Nice choice, that is the exact combo I went with last year.

[ken-n-nancy]

Wow- great thoughts everyone. I did end up purchasing prosperity, award and bewitched.

I think you'll be happy with that selection.

Thanks for posting the entire soil test. That confirms that you do need additional potassium and do NOT need any calcium or magnesium.

So much to learn- I'll try and figure out the potassium for next year- getting a bit late and don't want to start a fungal problem.

What will your lawn installer be doing at seed-down for fertilization? Standard practice would be to put down a "starter" fertilizer (something like 24-25-4) at a rate of about 0.8# N / ksqft to 1.0# N / ksqft.

That would be a good idea, but, given your low potassium, I'd suggest instead making an application of a balanced fertilizer (e.g. 12-12-12 or 10-10-10 or 19-19-19) at a rate of about 0.8#N / ksqft to 1.0#N / ksqft at the time of seed-down. That will give you all the N and P of the traditional "starter" fertilizer, but will also help address your potassium shortfall, to help ensure that your new grass has the nutrients it needs.

[Paul]

Will advise my lawn installer to use 3lbs per 1000 and save the leftover. I have 80 lbs of seed coming for 15,000 sq ft. May have leftover to sell- and store.

I would suggest that you just give the lawn installer about 50 pounds and tell him to use around 45 pounds. This way he has about 5 pounds to play with. If you give him the whole 80 pounds, he might use the whole 80 pounds. I know this from experience. Better safe than sorry.

[MfanIN]

Thanks everyone.

Greenrebellion- would love to see a picture of your lawn!

Wanted to follow up on some questions that I missed.

1) how will the soil be loosened: the lawn installer mentioned he would use a type of core aerator that has two sets of tines at an angle to each other (like a plow?)- this somehow massages the soil back and forth.

2) regarding started fertilizer: need to check with my lawn maintenance guy. he may have dropped potash immediately after receiving the soil report (in addition to nitrogen-based fertilizer). If he has dropped potash already, should I have the lawn installer stick with normal starter fertilizer (which he mentioned he would use)? otherwise

thanks,

James

[greenrebellion]

Mfan, I included a pic below, but first a bit of background.

When I used the award/prosperity/bewitched mix in 2016, I hydroseeded (probably not ideal), failed to fallow (definitely a huge mistake), and brought compost in (that turned out to have gargantuan quantities of grassy weeds). I also got 5 inches of rain in the weeks after hydroseeding. So the renovation was a complete mess and I am redoing the front right now and the back will be redone in 2018. That said, my failure had nothing to do with the cultivars I selected. There are only a couple of areas that look halfway decent in my yard, so here's one pic from one of the better areas to give you an idea of those three cultivars together.

https://postimg.cc/image/5637krzfd/

[HoosierLawnGnome]

So, you're in northern Indiana - downwind from good ol' lake Michigan over the winter. Applying Potassium in the late fall, a new lawn, and a good chance of extended snow coverage is a good recipe for snow mold late Winter.

Get a full dose of K in now, but use a starter fertilizer with as low a third number as you can find (11-28-3, etc) for Phosphorus after say - mid September.

Read up on the fall Nitrogen program.

A couple tips:
- Apply starter fertilizer with Mesotrione at seed down at bag rate
- If you apply SOP, only apply it once at 2 lbs / K before seed down
- If you're going to apply more starter, apply it at bag rate when you get out of sprout n pout and again in October before first frost
- Start mowing it as soon as you can, as low as you can without scalping dirt (2" for instance if you have relatively even soil)