Yard will be graded near first frost. Seed now or what?

[agn015]

We just had a gigantic oak tree cut down from our backyard. It was about 140' tall and 50" in diameter. It was only 10' from our house and being eaten by ants so it needed to go. We probably should have removed it in summer so we had time to regrade, fallow and seed properly, but we didn't.

Now that it's gone, we're having the entire property graded (about 12k sqft), topsoil brought in and I will seed. The grading will take place sometime during the week of October 22nd. Our average first frost date is that same week on October 27th. I would like to put down sod quality KBG or sod quality TTTF mix, but I haven't done much research on what cultivars will work best for me yet. I think I'm going to call Hogans seed later today to see what they recommend.

What would be the best plan of action for my situation? With frost approaching, I don't think there is time to fallow/glyphosate before seeding. Is there? Should I rush a sod quality seed selection and hope most of it comes up before winter? Then touch it up in the spring and again in fall? If I go with KBG it should spread with an aggressive fall nitrogen plan.

I also have a 50lb bag of non-sod quality seed in my garage. Its a blend of 33% creeping red fescue, 29% perennial ryegrass and 9% Kentucky bluegrass so the ryegrass and fescue should germinate pretty quickly. Should I just use this instead to get a green yard through winter and then do a full renovation next fall when I can do everything properly?

[Green]

I would seed with a good quality, weed-free/other crop-free PR. It's going to be late, even for PR...but it has the best chance...speaking from experience seeding at around that time. It's OK if there's some KBG seed mixed in, but don't count on it doing anything until Spring...if at all. But, definitely use predominantly PR in this instance. You're looking for at least 6 days for PR to start germinating as it gets cooler out. Forget about relying on KBG, imho. Even TTTF will take way too long to germinate as the temps lower...

I'm not even thinking about using KBG as a predominant seed anymore this year. All seeding I do from now on is with PR or PR mixed with a Fescue of some type. And it's still not ideal...

I would not count on dormant seeding or Spring seeding, either...I'd get something down that week after the yard is worked on.

[Marinegrunt]

You're better off waiting. The seed will germinate but won't have enough time to mature to make it through winter. KBG can take up to 3 weeks to germinate. My tttf took about 8 days. The roots won't have much time to mature tho. I would probably wait until next fall unless erosion is an issue. Maybe toss down that cheap seed as a temporary ground cover and plan on a renovation for next year. It's just getting too late in the year to risk losing sod quality kbg seed.

Planning for next fall would give you a chance to glypho everything you don't won't growing in your lawn.

[agn015]

Thanks Green and Marinegrunt, I was leaning towards pushing the sod quality seeding to next year too. I was originally planning to reno small sections of lawn in fall 2018, but since the grass is getting trampled this month, I was going to try to expedite things. I don't have irrigation, other than dragging hoses so this will give me time to figure that out and get the right seed for the project.

I'll throw down the cheap seed I have as soon as the grading is complete. I'll try to hit with urea for that final app. Last year that happened around Thanksgiving.

Marinegrunt, how do you like your TTTF blend from Hogan? I did get a recommendation from them. They suggested the mix below. I see it's different than what you used for your reno, but I'm wondering if I should go with a mix like that instead of a straight KBG stand. Was your wife's opinion the only reason you chose TTTF vs KBG? I really like the idea of KBG spreading.

26.66% GTO TTTF
26.66% Hemi TTTF
26.66% Hot Rod TTTF
5% Everest KBG
5% Award KBG
5% Everglad KBG
5% Midnight KBG

I'

[JohnP]

I'll also chime in on the wait until next year thought. You could throw some cheap seed down and glyphosate next year if you want something to mow come spring.

Take the opportunity to make a good property map and plan. Get a soil test and make amendments (I think ST6 goes on hiatus at end of this month so do Logan Labs now) so that you can give yourself a proper fallow and follow through with your plan and not be rushed.

[Green]

33% creeping red fescue, 29% perennial ryegrass and 9% Kentucky bluegrass...

That adds up to 71%. Why is that?

[andy10917]

think ST6 goes on hiatus at end of this month

Not so much "hiatus" as winter project time - there is no time to concentrate on next-years work while there is a waiting list.

[Green]

Yeah, let's not start a rumor. Andy...by waiting list...do you mean people who submit their samples in the Fall instead of Spring?

And what's that about Logan Labs, JohnP...another rumor or a fact?

[andy10917]

And what's that about Logan Labs, JohnP...another rumor or a fact?

You have until Oct 31 before we go to winter projects and/or hibernation. I have three winter projects -- two ATY big ones and a personal one. And that doesn't include my damaged Key Largo place (Irma damage).

The waiting list ("queue thread") is to ensure that we do the test interpretations in the order they were received. It has nothing to do with Fall or Spring.

[JohnP]

Sorry, maybe hiatus was wrong word. Logan Labs is just the one you want to use, there are others but the interpretations require LL.

[agn015]

33% creeping red fescue, 29% perennial ryegrass and 9% Kentucky bluegrass...

That adds up to 71%. Why is that?

Sorry that's a typo. It should be 33.9% creeping red fescue, 29% Palmer 3 perennial rye, 25% pennant 2 perennial rye and 9.8% KBG. That's a little closer to 100%.

You're right JohnP I will certainly need to update my property map. I've got 2 years of ST6 soil amendments under my belt already but I'm wondering if the top soil that's bought in will change any of that. The proposal says they're bringing 40 yards in. In any case I'll certainly get a soil test come spring once the ground thaws to see what's changed. Until then I'll stick with the current plan and try to hit it with some more BLSC/Kelp help at seed down. Will probably skip the Tenacity though.

[Green]

I'd use that seed like you said...but determine the seeding rate as if the KBG were not even in the mix, pretending that extra 10% taken up by it was just inert matter, because it's so late in the year. I'd treat it as if it were almost totally PR seed with a little bit of CRF in it.

[Marinegrunt]

It's too early to really tell if I like the blend from Hogan. They might've recommended 20% kbg for you because you don't have as much shade. I definitely wanted some kbg for it's spreading. I also didn't want to have to over seed every few years if needed if I went with only tttf.

My wife's opinion was a big part of why I went with tttf. I personally like kbg better but I don't have irrigation so figured the tttf would be a better choice for now. I may change it in the future though. It was really hard for me to decide.

[Marinegrunt]

The pictures I showed my wife of Hogan's TTTF blend were from a member named Othertime. I tried doing a quick search for them I didn't see them. I'm at work so didn't have much time to search.

[Wally]

Last fall I seeded in November (NJ). I used garden frost covers that were 15 feet wide. I stapled a few rows together. I left it on all winter and into spring until temps warmed up. The grass was high and growing great when I removed the covers.

I wish I had used Tenacity to control weeds.

[Wally]

Last fall I seeded in November (NJ). I used garden frost covers that were 15 feet wide. I stapled a few rows together. I left it on all winter and into spring until temps warmed up. The grass was high and growing great when I removed the covers.

I wish I had used Tenacity to control weeds.

[Green]

agn...Chances are good you'll do OK with the PR/no-mix, since you have another month until your average first frost.

[agn015]

I found othertimes thread but the pictures wouldn't load for me. I'll watch your thread and see how the grass matures. From other pictures I've seen online I think I'd like tttf. I just don't like the idea of overseeding every year. But if there's 20% KBG in he mix hopefully I won't have to.

I also don't have irrigation so maybe I'll go with the blend hogan is recommending. I've been running 2 impact sprinklers and moving them around to get as good coverage as possible. If I am going to renovate next year I'll have to get something a little more reliable.

I'm going through a bunch of diy threads in the irrigation section but so far I haven't found any large projects with a lot of detail that would be comparable to my yard.

Those garden covers sound interesting but would be too expensive. I see the 10'x15' covers for $10.75 at Home Depot. I have at least 10k sqft to cover so I think I'll just put that money towards seed or irrigation next year.

Average first frost for my zip 11779 is 10/27 which is not a month away. Either way I'll give seeding a shot. Depending on how it does I might try my luck at dormant seeding too. I've had some pretty good luck with it in the past although without irrigation that grass seems to die off in late summer.

[JohnP]

I'm going through a bunch of diy threads in the irrigation section but so far I haven't found any large projects with a lot of detail that would be comparable to my yard.

If I recall correctly Marinegrunt did a pretty decent above ground system but with pex and tapped into the main line. Maybe if we ask nicely he will do some photos and a write up about it.

[Green]

Sorry, agn015: I've been going nuts recently, reading lots of articles and looking at different data sets for first frost prediction, because I had an issue with getting an accurate estimate estimate for my area. I think I was mixed up from that when I posted that it was a month away.