fall nitrogen regimen...still no first frost ( i think)

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legacy2000
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fall nitrogen regimen...still no first frost ( i think)

Post by legacy2000 » October 30th, 2017, 5:24 pm

Sorry in advance, but have a newborn baby at home and been traveling a lot for work lately, so been very busy and just need some assistance with my fall nitrogen regimen. I promise to read Andy's fall regimen tutorial very soon, but want to make sure I'm taking the right steps since we had mild weather and I recently completed a lawn renovation.

Here is a recent summary of my lawn.....in August I completed a very successful lawn renovation with TTTF/KBG blend from Hogan (thank you Andy for my soil test feedback). Since my lawn renovation, I applied Milorganite at 13lbs/k in late September. I applied Milorganite once again at 13lbs/k a few days ago.

I live in northern New Haven county of Connecticut and don't believe we had a first frost yet. Can anyone please give some thoughts on when to apply some Urea 46-0-0 based on the weather here and my recent lawn reno?

Thanks,
Legacy

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Re: fall nitrogen regimen...still no first frost ( i think)

Post by andy10917 » October 30th, 2017, 8:01 pm

At the Average First Frost Date, unless you have a crystal ball that will give you three weeks warning to the growth stoppage. That's the time needed for the grass to stop after the last urea treatment.

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Re: fall nitrogen regimen...still no first frost ( i think)

Post by Green » October 30th, 2017, 11:12 pm

I'm in roughly your same area. You're right that we haven't had a true frost yet, but it's coming Tuesday night. Our average first frost date is between Oct. 14th and Oct. 18th. In my specific area, the grass stops growing between end of November and middle of December, depending on the micro-climate and the specific conditions. My upper back is done before early December, but the front continues to grow a little bit into December most years.

Imho, it's too late for urea now in our area. I wouldn't even put down as little as 0.25 lb/K anymore. I looked at the grass this morning, and it just looked different than it has for the past month after all the rain...and it's beginning to start slowing down in its growth the past few days. We're into the slower growth of mid Fall now.

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Re: fall nitrogen regimen...still no first frost ( i think)

Post by Green » November 1st, 2017, 12:04 am

By the way...

You'll be fine with the two apps of Milorganite plus final winterizer for the Fall.

Then picking up in the Spring after the third mow or so, in late April, you can do a light urea app, and then repeat that a few weeks later in mid May, followed a couple of weeks later by Milorganite.

I would continue to fertilize the heck out of it next Spring, using the Milorganite, into the first week or two of Summer, as long as you can keep up with the watering and mowing.

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Re: fall nitrogen regimen...still no first frost ( i think)

Post by legacy2000 » November 1st, 2017, 6:29 pm

Cool thank you very much!


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Re: fall nitrogen regimen...still no first frost ( i think)

Post by Green » November 1st, 2017, 8:26 pm

You're welcome; that first Spring is the most important one...it can use the extra Nitrogen.
Good luck!

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Re: fall nitrogen regimen...still no first frost ( i think)

Post by jfoege » November 8th, 2017, 12:35 am

Hey Green, you feeling like Veterans Day is the right time to drop Urea here in CT? Sorry not hijacking thread. Temos git low FAST. Grass top growth looks to be way slowed. I feel like we're in that 2 week window for a urea shot by the end of the week. You? Anyone? This is my first year, so, dont wanna pull the trigger too early...but Fri low is 15? No days above 50? Yeesh!

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Re: fall nitrogen regimen...still no first frost ( i think)

Post by lVlrBoJang1es » November 8th, 2017, 9:06 am

jfoege wrote:
November 8th, 2017, 12:35 am
Grass top growth looks to be way slowed.
This is my first year as well, but "slowed" is not = "stopped".

I'm mowing about once a week now for growth (although the leaves falling dictates more frequent mows at the moment). I'm quite certain that when the growth completely stops that i'll be able to tell, and IF i miss it i'll have a 2nd mow in that 2-week window where i'll have another chance to detect the stoppage.

I'm not going to rush it, but that's just me.

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Re: fall nitrogen regimen...still no first frost ( i think)

Post by ken-n-nancy » November 8th, 2017, 9:53 am

jfoege wrote:
November 8th, 2017, 12:35 am
Hey Green, you feeling like Veterans Day is the right time to drop Urea here in CT? Sorry not hijacking thread. Temos git low FAST. Grass top growth looks to be way slowed. I feel like we're in that 2 week window for a urea shot by the end of the week. You? Anyone? This is my first year, so, dont wanna pull the trigger too early...but Fri low is 15? No days above 50? Yeesh!
I think it's almost certain that this coming weekend (Veteran's Day) is probably still too early for me up in New Hampshire.

The final application does NOT get applied when "top growth looks to be way slowed."

The final quick-release application should be applied after "top growth stops."

My criteria for stopped is that when I go out to mulch up the leaves on the lawn, at least 6-7 full days after the previous mowing/mulching, that there are ZERO grass clippings from mowing. Not just a little bit of growth, but no growth.

Particularly for us folks in the northern states (well north of the transition zone), you will do more harm than good by applying a quick-release fertilizer to the lawn while the grass is still growing (slowly) but hasn't yet stopped, by increasing the likelihood of winterkill and snow mold due to pushing top growth that will end up going into winter as lush, fragile grass blades with insufficient time to harden off before winter.

Looking back at my "top growth stopped" dates for the past two years:

Front lawn (more sun):
  • 27 Nov 2016
  • 20 Nov 2015
Side & Back Lawns (mostly shade):
  • 18 Nov 2016
  • 20 Nov 2015
I anticipate this year will be even later, as October was very warm here -- average temperature for the month in 2017 was +9F above the historical average (2017 was 60F avg, while "normal" is 51F). I wouldn't be at all surprised if our "top growth stopped" mowing isn't until December. Admittedly, we have a very 4-5 days in the forecast here (our weekend highs are forecasted to be right around freezing, with nights in the single digits) but you need to wait for the grass to actually stop top growth before making the final quick-release fertilizer application.

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Re: fall nitrogen regimen...still no first frost ( i think)

Post by TimmyG » November 8th, 2017, 11:27 am

I'm not too far from ken-n-nancy across the MA border, and I'm still mowing every four days like nothing has changed. Tons of growth. Winterization is not in my sights.

Heck, I still have my in-ground pool open and running while trying to fix a leak.

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Re: fall nitrogen regimen...still no first frost ( i think)

Post by jfoege » November 8th, 2017, 11:35 am

Thanks everybody! Im going to steel my nerves and wait it out!

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Re: fall nitrogen regimen...still no first frost ( i think)

Post by Green » November 8th, 2017, 3:18 pm

jfoege,

No, barring highly unusual weather (deviations from the norm) this week would be much too early, unless you have a funky micro-climate causing growth to truly stop (and not start up again) this early in the Southern half of CT.

Seeing that you and I are in the same general area, I would bet that we will be winterizing during the same week. For me, it has never been earlier than late November, and it has been as late as mid December. On average, it's been the first week of December. Let's see...this is my 6th year, so it's not a huge amount data, but I feel like I've gotten the hang of it.

One other thing is, I don't think it ever truly 100% stops growing in December or even early Jan...but for all intents and purposes, it has stopped by then most years. You don't see or remove any growth after 2 consecutive weeks. But then in early Jan, you see that the Triv patches (if you have any) have added a tiny fraction of an inch since your last mow. Late Dec. or early January would be far too late to Winterize here, btw...barring another highly unusual weather pattern of course. It could happen, but I haven't seen it yet.

Here are my previous final Winterizer drop dates:

2016: Dec. 8th (but I was mowing until at least the middle of the month to get the height down a bit)
2015: Dec. 21st
2014: Nov. 23rd (we got early snow that year, and growth stopped by then)
2013: Nov. 23rd and Dec. 4th (didn't do the yard all at once; was technically a bit early with the first drop)
2012: Nov. 30th to first week in Dec (my first year doing it, and I had to ask lots of questions)

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Re: fall nitrogen regimen...still no first frost ( i think)

Post by DevilDawg81 » November 10th, 2017, 11:09 pm

The final application does NOT get applied when "top growth looks to be way slowed."

The final quick-release application should be applied after "top growth stops."

My criteria for stopped is that when I go out to mulch up the leaves on the lawn, at least 6-7 full days after the previous mowing/mulching, that there are ZERO grass clippings from mowing. Not just a little bit of growth, but no growth.

K-N-N...thank you for your post. I read Andy's fall nitrogen post a couple dozen times this fall, and tonight after reading this thread I was second guessing myself. You've cleared the confusion I think others were having; the final app should be after top growth ceases. Myself being in central Ohio, the growth has slowed but still once a week I'm getting clippings when I mow. I've got my urea ready to go but we're simply not at that point yet for application.

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Re: fall nitrogen regimen...still no first frost ( i think)

Post by andy10917 » November 10th, 2017, 11:32 pm

I read Andy's fall nitrogen post a couple dozen times this fall, and tonight after reading this thread I was second guessing myself.
For the life of me, I cannot understand how the below can be considered subject to interpretation -- It's pretty damned black-and-white to me.
The day will come when you mow the lawn and nothing gets cut. When that happens, stoppage has occurred.

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Re: fall nitrogen regimen...still no first frost ( i think)

Post by Green » November 11th, 2017, 12:01 am

If someone is truly unsure, just carefully measure with a ruler in the same exact spot twice, one week apart, on a hard surface (like next to a driveway). I've never actually had to do that, but it may help someone.

I think this unsure-ness that people have is more inexperience coupled with perfectionism, impatience and/or fear of screwing up the lawn. Urea doesn't have to be scary, and it helps if you've already used it for a Fall regimen...you see it's not scary at all.

I was definitely one of those crazy unsure people my first year...you get past it after a while.

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Re: fall nitrogen regimen...still no first frost ( i think)

Post by DevilDawg81 » November 11th, 2017, 8:23 am

andy10917 wrote:
November 10th, 2017, 11:32 pm
I read Andy's fall nitrogen post a couple dozen times this fall, and tonight after reading this thread I was second guessing myself.
For the life of me, I cannot understand how the below can be considered subject to interpretation -- It's pretty damned black-and-white to me.
The day will come when you mow the lawn and nothing gets cut. When that happens, stoppage has occurred.
Andy, to me it was black-and-white...but I had read the first few posts in this thread and was getting nervous thinking I had overlooked something. I'm a rookie at this and am taking the standard approach this year.

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Re: fall nitrogen regimen...still no first frost ( i think)

Post by legacy2000 » November 17th, 2017, 9:05 am

Green wrote:
November 1st, 2017, 8:26 pm
You're welcome; that first Spring is the most important one...it can use the extra Nitrogen.
Good luck!
Green, when are you planning on applying Urea for your final winterizer? You are in Connecticut, right? I’m wondering if I have time to apply some Mag-I-cal lime today since we are expecting rain this weekend (from my understanding lime and Urea need to be applied separately with some time in between).

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Re: fall nitrogen regimen...still no first frost ( i think)

Post by Green » November 17th, 2017, 2:25 pm

I'm in the exact same boat...I have to do my Lime app today, or else it will potentially interfere with my final winterizer fertilizer! As Andy says, you have to do the Lime at least 2 weeks apart from Nitrogen fertilizer on either side.

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Re: fall nitrogen regimen...still no first frost ( i think)

Post by andy10917 » November 17th, 2017, 3:19 pm

There is no "have to" edict. That just minimizes the loss of Urea Nitrogen when there is a spacing between the apps.

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Re: fall nitrogen regimen...still no first frost ( i think)

Post by Green » November 17th, 2017, 10:24 pm

Good to know, Andy...I wasn't sure if it would mess with Lime, too. That said, I don't really want to mess with the Nitrogen either. I got some of the Lime done tonight right as frost started forming on the lawn at 7:30PM. Hopefully tomorrow's weather will cooperate and allow me to finish everything in the early afternoon.

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