Maintenance Program

[andy10917]

Can I use Weed B Gone on the whole lawn? Meaning will it kill my fescue? And spray is better than a granular?

Yes, you can do it on the entire lawn if its too much for spot treatments.

No, it should not hurt the TTTF. Check the label of what's being sold in your area as formulations differ from the North to the South.

Identify the weeds FIRST - WBG (and most granulars too) do not kill all weeds. And also remember, some weeds will require a second (or even a third) hit 10-14 days later - how will you handle them with a weed-and-feed product?

I like sprays better for three reasons: (1) if I have weeds that require different weed killers, I can research whether a mixed "cocktail" application of multiple weed killers is safe, (2) I can add a surfactant (dishwashing soap) to make it stick better, and (3) I can hit the survivors again without worrying about fertilizer overload.

[skizot]

I rarely use the term compacted because it means something different to me. Soil can be hard and not be compacted. For the most part, that is the issue. The reason a homeowner's soil gets hard is the soil biology has died.

Soil needs a large population of healthy microbes in order to be "healthy" or soft. Things that kill the microbes are fungicides (like sulfur, sulfates, chemical fungicides), salt overdose, lack of water, lack of food, and lack of air. If you don't use any fungicides, then a slow watering will correct most of the rest of the issues. By slow I mean the water comes out of the faucet at a rate of 1 cup per minute and is sent to a 100 foot long soaker hose, 24/7, for a week. That is s-l-o-w watering. It works because it provides a constant moisture level while allowing air to enter the soil. The beneficial fungi in the soil love these conditions and will grow almost as fast as mold on a moldy bread. Once it is set up, the fungal growth rate through the soil is probably on the order of 1,000 cubic inches per day. After a few weeks of that the soil is pretty soft. Mine gets so soft it feels like walking on fluffy beach sand - unsteadily soft.

Before you try the chemical approaches, you might try the soaker hose. It's free except for the cost of the hose. Oh and I've calculated the trickle water usage to be about 800 gallons per week. My oscillator sprinkler uses 800 gallons per hour when I'm watering the lawn, so 800 gpw is not much.

I'll write more on that and publish it on the home page.

Hi, David. I had a question about your soaker method. I can see how it would help for soils that aren't clay, but I don't see how it would help clay soils. Slowly soaking clay soil is not going to change the soil structure. I don't think it will work that well for the microbes either, as the soil particles are so close together, not much air at all can enter; that's why clay holds moisture for so long. I think mechanical (core-aeration) and the chemical approaches are there for people who have clay soils. Improving the organic matter with compost during the mechanical method, and trying to stick to an overall organic approach would yield far better results in improving soil structure, I would think. Any thoughts?

[Dchall_San_Antonio]

Hi Skizot. I would think the soaker would work especially well for clay soil. Growing the fungus is what does the job. If you have clay soil could you try it and let us know if it works?

[andy10917]

I can attest to the success of David's soaker hose technique, and attest in spades.

I ran the soaker hose regimen last year, and the soil changed dramatically. It has remained changed. While my soil is not a clay soil, it loosened and became alive. To this day, I can push a Weed Hound into the soil without stepping on the little bar on the bottom. My wife has commented on how grass is growing in areas that it never grew before - spots under some trees so inhospitable that I gave up on even bothering to seed them - the patchy survivors just voluntarily started spreading.

I have modified David's technique a little. On the last day of the treatment, I add molasses to the water going to the soaker line. While it worked for me, I wouldn't recommend it yet because David had a question that I couldn't come up with a good answer for - "didn't you have any problems with clogging?". I didn't, but I have a system for injecting miniscule amounts of nutrients into my hose water that not that many people have. So, I wouldn't try the molasses addition without the system.

Here's a spot where a Weeping Laceleaf Japanese Maple comes within 4" of the soil - it NEVER would grow anything. With organics and David's soaker hose technique, it is now volunteering to grow grass:

[MorpheusPA]

Huh. Maybe I could try that using my EZ-Flo at low rate (1000:1 dilution). I haven't tried the soaker hose method...yet...but just might.

I'm wondering if our (right now) nearly daily rainfall is doing the same thing? The soil is damp, but drains pretty well here, and we've already had 3.5" of rain followed by cloudy days. There are mushrooms everywhere.

[skizot]

Interesting. So has anyone with clay soil actually tried this method? I can give it a shot myself, but I'm still not convinced it's going to have an effect on clay soil. I know, the only way to find out is to try it myself, but I was just looking for some input from someone who really has clay soil and has tried this method.

Andy, sounds like the method worked well for you. It also sounds like you have more of a loam soil, though. There's a big difference between a 99% clay soil and a loam soil.

David, can you go into a little more detail about how the soaker method would work for clay? The problem with clay is that you're not getting the oxygen into the soil like you are with a loam soil due to things like particle size; you're getting some, but the difference is quite large.

[Dchall_San_Antonio]

Sure...what would have to happen is the fungi would have to penetrate between the clay particles with their hyphae. They only need to separate a few particles with the first 0.001 mm of growth. When the hyphae swell with water, they push the clay particles apart. When the hyphae shrink from a lack of soaking moisture, the tunnels opened up by the hyphae allow air in. The openings become capillary tubes for the moisture next time it gets wet. If you have bacteria involved in the soil, the bacterial slime that they shed becomes the glue that holds the tunnels intact. It is my understanding that the bacterial slime is what holds "dirt clods" together. There has to be a physical component to the clodding effect because sand does not form clods.

Does your soil look like this picture?



This soil is under a cattle guard where water collects. The standing water cuts off the oxygen to the soil below and kills the surface fungi which need all the oxygen they can get. When that happens, the pounding of the rain and the water sitting on the soil results in the clay particles settling together. Any bacterial slime around and the particles become joined. As the surface dries downward, the fungiless soil shrinks and cracks as you see. All this soil needs is mulch and it will recover quickly. Of course being located in a drainage ditch sort of dooms this soil to this fate every time it rains.

Many years ago on that other forum a guy wrote in about his "ceramic quality" clay. He said he had used sawdust from his furniture shop as a mulch. The general consensus of gurus at the time told him he was going to tie up all the nitrogen in his soil. They grilled him hard. He said that after 15 years of using the sawdust that his soil was so loose he could "plunge his arms in up to the elbow." I suppose you could argue that all he had there was sawdust and plunging your arms into sawdust ain't that hard. He insisted it was his original clay. He said he used 2-3 inches of sawdust each time he dumped his vacuum bins. He said at first it took a whole year for the sawdust to decompose but that recently it would disappear much more quickly. That would make sense because normal soil does not have much of the fungi needed to decompose wood. However, after many years of dumping wood dust, I would assume the soil had built up a huge population of those specialized fungi.

Does any of this help, skizot?

[skizot]

I wish my soil would dry out like that. Unfortunately, it never does. The soil never really dries out. Even in the middle of summer, it's just like that "sculpting clay" you mentioned above. I will go dig some of it out in a spot to show you what I'm working with. The ground is never hard, but the clay is so dense and thick, I'd imagine it makes it very difficult for the roots to grow.

Just in case you're wondering about the never dries out comment... I only water once a week (during the Summer, less frequently in the Fall, and not really at all in the Spring) and put down a full 1" of water. It takes about 12 hours to do this, because I've got to do on/off cycles on each station, giving each separate area extra "dry" time to avoid run-off. I also cut my grass at 4", and it's very dense, so at the soil surface it is very shaded. I haven't watered at all this Spring, as we've had ample rain each week.

I don't think I buy the whole sawdust thing though. The only thing that's truly "specialized" in decomposing wood is terminates. LOL. Maybe he didn't pay close enough attention to realize that there were terminates all over the place. Seriously though, there are varying factors (abiotic and biotic) that contribute to the decomposition of wood, but overall, it is a very slow process. 2-3 inches of sawdust each time he dumped the bins? I'm assuming he dumped them multiple times a year as well. I find it very hard to believe that a foot of sawdust is decomposing in a year, let alone less than that. The reason for the slow decay of wood is the high Carbon content. Yeah, I know you don't want to talk about that, but it's a major factor in decomposition.

I'll try to snap a picture of the clay this evening, and post it back up.

[Dchall_San_Antonio]

It is not slow because of carbohydrates (I refuse to call it carbon). Sugar is high in carbohydrates and it decomposes very quickly. The problem is the carbohydrates are in the form of cellulose glued together with lignin. Those decompose slowly. But that's neither here nor there. Try the soaker.

[bpgreen]

" The only thing that's truly "specialized" in decomposing wood is terminates."

Do you mean termites?

Most termites don't digest wood at all. Instead, they have a symbiotic relationship with microbes that do the digesting for them. Some termites are capable of digesting the wood in the absence of these microbes but have an easier time of it if the microbes are available.

[skizot]

It is not slow because of carbohydrates (I refuse to call it carbon). Sugar is high in carbohydrates and it decomposes very quickly. The problem is the carbohydrates are in the form of cellulose glued together with lignin. Those decompose slowly. But that's neither here nor there. Try the soaker.

As we discussed on another forum, call it what you like, but carbohydrates are hydrates of carbon. If the decomposition rate of carbon varied as wildly as you suggest, we would not be able to use it as a form of dating. There have been numerous papers/studies/etc. conducted and written about the decomposition of wood (you are partially correct about the lignin, but it's not that simple), and why it is such a slow process, so it's not really worth continuing to argue about. So, we'll just have to agree to disagree on the subject. No hard feelings.

" The only thing that's truly "specialized" in decomposing wood is terminates."

Do you mean termites?

Most termites don't digest wood at all. Instead, they have a symbiotic relationship with microbes that do the digesting for them. Some termites are capable of digesting the wood in the absence of these microbes but have an easier time of it if the microbes are available.

Yes, I meant termites. Sorry, I had coding on the brain when posting.

The termites have symbiotic protozoa and other microbes that live in their stomach, not the soil. You may want to read about them here: Metamonad and here: Termites. Here's a snippet from the former link:

The metamonads are a large group of flagellate protozoa. Their composition is not entirely settled, but they include the retortamonads, diplomonads, and possibly the parabasalids and oxymonads as well. These four groups are all anaerobic, occurring mostly as symbiotes of animals.

The microbes that do the decomposition of woody material have a symbiotic relationship with the termites; they don't live in the soil.

[Dchall_San_Antonio]

It is not slow because of carbohydrates (I refuse to call it carbon). Sugar is high in carbohydrates and it decomposes very quickly. The problem is the carbohydrates are in the form of cellulose glued together with lignin. Those decompose slowly. But that's neither here nor there. Try the soaker.

As we discussed on another forum, call it what you like, but carbohydrates are hydrates of carbon. If the decomposition rate of carbon varied as wildly as you suggest, we would not be able to use it as a form of dating. There have been numerous papers/studies/etc. conducted and written about the decomposition of wood (you are partially correct about the lignin, but it's not that simple), and why it is such a slow process, so it's not really worth continuing to argue about. So, we'll just have to agree to disagree on the subject. No hard feelings.

The carbon itself does not decompose. The carbohydrates do. And I agree it is not that simple. Nothing is simple in soil biology.

Have you picked a place to try the soaker? I'm really curious to see how well it works for you.

[skizot]

Have you picked a place to try the soaker? I'm really curious to see how well it works for you.

I'm thinking about trying it out in one of my berms. Not sure if I'll bury it though after reading bpgreen's hypothetical comment about hypothetically chopping it in half with a hoe. LOL

[MorpheusPA]

The growing grass will cover it over, but make sure it's pinned down well (wire hangers, cut apart, work well, as does heavy green craft wire) so the mower doesn't lift and cut it.

[skizot]

The growing grass will cover it over, but make sure it's pinned down well (wire hangers, cut apart, work well, as does heavy green craft wire) so the mower doesn't lift and cut it.

I'm not growing any grass in the berm; just a few plants here and there. So it shouldn't be a problem.

[Dchall_San_Antonio]

I've been mowing over hoses, tennis balls, and dog toys for years. It drives my wife crazy.