No winterizer app this year

Kentucky bluegrass, Fescue, Rye and Bent, etc
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Jackpine
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No winterizer app this year

Post by Jackpine » November 13th, 2017, 12:22 pm

No winterizer app this year. Top growth ceased and soil temps plummeted to 35 F. Very doubtful the roots would be able to use N at this point.

What a different kind of fall we are having. :|

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Re: No winterizer app this year

Post by ryeguy » November 13th, 2017, 3:35 pm

At what soil temp do roots stop taking in N?

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Re: No winterizer app this year

Post by gave20 » November 13th, 2017, 5:00 pm

roots continue to grow from 39-33 degrees

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Jackpine
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Re: No winterizer app this year

Post by Jackpine » November 13th, 2017, 5:42 pm

ryeguy wrote:
November 13th, 2017, 3:35 pm
At what soil temp do roots stop taking in N?
Probably depends on the soil biology. Some soil critters could still be active near freezing, but doubt there is much N conversion going on at that temp.

Root growth slows as temps approach 40 deg.

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Re: No winterizer app this year

Post by Jackpine » November 13th, 2017, 6:05 pm

Sorry for the vague answer to your question in my prior post. I've always held that soil temps in the 40 to 45 deg range were optimal at least for my area for good results from a winterizer app. UP north for me that period typically lasts a couple weeks, although in recent years has lasted as long as 4 weeks. Ideally top growth ceases and soil temps stay "in range" long enough. In my case that did not happen this year.


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Re: No winterizer app this year

Post by PSU4ME » November 13th, 2017, 6:23 pm

When you say “N conversion” are you talking an organic? I don’t think that would apply to a synthetic like urea. Heck I’m still waiting for my 2-3 week period to open up so I can put some down.

I may have misunderstood your question/comments but I wouldn’t think it’s too late. I’m on a mobile device so I can’t see your location.

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Re: No winterizer app this year

Post by Green » November 13th, 2017, 7:43 pm

You know your weather the best...but since this year isn't typical, as you said, maybe your soil temps will go back up in the next couple of days. I would keep checking and not necessarily say the window is closed for certain.

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Re: No winterizer app this year

Post by Jackpine » November 14th, 2017, 7:01 am

PSU4ME wrote:
November 13th, 2017, 6:23 pm
When you say “N conversion” are you talking an organic? I don’t think that would apply to a synthetic like urea. Heck I’m still waiting for my 2-3 week period to open up so I can put some down.

I may have misunderstood your question/comments but I wouldn’t think it’s too late. I’m on a mobile device so I can’t see your location.
N conversion in general terms. Irregardless, at 40-45F urea hydrolysis is much slower and can take a week or more.

As for my location, I'm on the edge of the Lake Michigan fruit belt where fall temps are moderated by the warm waters of the big lake and creates the snow belt effect when cold arctic air passes over picking up moisture from the lake and dumping it on us in the form of snow.

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Re: No winterizer app this year

Post by ronfitch » November 14th, 2017, 12:05 pm

I may be in a similar situation ...

Mowed on Sunday the 5th, had clippings.

Mowed again on Sunday the 12th (two days ago), still had clippings, though growth has really slowed down.

Ground temps at the four-inch depth are dropping like a rock here (mid-30s) and today is wet. Not raining but misty. And now more leaves have dropped since Sunday and chance of snow on Thursday. So, no chance to mulch mow due to darkness. Even if I could, am still dealing with dropping UREA on wet grass, which I recall reading here is a bad idea (unless doing it during rain).

Odds are it won't happen this year. Then again, it has been a really weird year, so the odds are out the window.

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Re: No winterizer app this year

Post by Jackpine » November 15th, 2017, 5:13 am

ronfitch wrote:
November 14th, 2017, 12:05 pm
I may be in a similar situation ...

Mowed on Sunday the 5th, had clippings.

Mowed again on Sunday the 12th (two days ago), still had clippings, though growth has really slowed down.

Ground temps at the four-inch depth are dropping like a rock here (mid-30s) and today is wet. Not raining but misty. And now more leaves have dropped since Sunday and chance of snow on Thursday. So, no chance to mulch mow due to darkness. Even if I could, am still dealing with dropping UREA on wet grass, which I recall reading here is a bad idea (unless doing it during rain).

Odds are it won't happen this year. Then again, it has been a really weird year, so the odds are out the window.
More normal than weird for my location Certainly it was the opposite of last year when temperatures in late November were well above average with lots of sunshine to keep soil temps up.

Balancing top growth with the Urea app can be tricky in the northern zone. I remember once putting down urea when a mow produced 1/4" of clippings after a week or so and it did not force any top growth, verified when mulching leaves. Sometimes you have to go with your instincts.

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Re: No winterizer app this year

Post by lVlrBoJang1es » November 15th, 2017, 9:33 am

Do you guys actually probe areas for soil temps? Or are you estimating based on soil conditions/available environmental data?

I've been mowing at least 2x/week for leaf mulching and almost always in the dark (only time my schedule permits at the moment). As a result it's a bit difficult for me to tell if i'm still getting top growth. With low visibility, frequent mowings, and loads leaf mulch, detecting clippings has been almost nil.

Conjecturally it's still growing - average air temps in my area (SE Michigan) are still in low 40s to high 30s...Thus, I'm not rushing out to put my last bit of urea down any time soon. In my mind, i'm more worried about throwing down the winterizer app too early. I'd rather not pollute the environment, but i wouldn't lose sleep if i miss the appropriate window however short that may be this year...

I'm wondering if there's a better way to detect POTENTIAL stoppage (soil probing?). Being new to this, i'm worried that my "instincts" are not mature enough. I don't intend to base my lawn care habits entirely on data entirely, but in some cases it has proven to help my novice senses be more AWARE when certain things SHOULD be happening.

Incoming post from the old schoolers: "GET A FLASHLIGHT/MOW IN THE DAYLIGHT ONCE AND USE YOUR DAMN EYES!" :blackeye: :rotfl:

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Jackpine
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Re: No winterizer app this year

Post by Jackpine » November 15th, 2017, 2:13 pm

When I feel it's starting to get close I'll read this soil temp in the morning and late afternoon to get an average.' It's also nice to compare with MSU's MAWN sites. Here's yours for SE Michigan.

https://mawn.geo.msu.edu/mawn-sw.html

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Re: No winterizer app this year

Post by gave20 » November 15th, 2017, 2:38 pm

i read soil temps. just checked mine and it's 43 degrees

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Re: No winterizer app this year

Post by PSU4ME » November 15th, 2017, 5:12 pm

I know if Andy is reading this he'd probably smack his head and say "can't these people realize that its not a specific number......." but i figured i'd ask. At what soil temps do you normally attribute to growth stoppage?

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Re: No winterizer app this year

Post by Green » November 15th, 2017, 7:44 pm

PSU, why not keep your own measurement records for your own grass. Personally I feel soil temp is a valuable piece of information, but I'm not using it as a proxy for determining growth. Just another piece of data that can help me out if I'm not sure what is going on internally.

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Re: No winterizer app this year

Post by PSU4ME » November 15th, 2017, 9:31 pm

Green wrote:
November 15th, 2017, 7:44 pm
PSU, why not keep your own measurement records for your own grass. Personally I feel soil temp is a valuable piece of information, but I'm not using it as a proxy for determining growth. Just another piece of data that can help me out if I'm not sure what is going on internally.
With no history it’s not much help now which is why I’m asking others. I’ll keep it this year but I’m going to start another thread to not derail this one.

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Re: No winterizer app this year

Post by ryeguy » November 15th, 2017, 9:45 pm

I found this googling around:

http://postimg.cc/image/jqscaxkgr/

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Re: No winterizer app this year

Post by ryeguy » November 15th, 2017, 11:21 pm

Oh, oops. Just realized someone linked to a text version of this.

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Re: No winterizer app this year

Post by andy10917 » November 15th, 2017, 11:45 pm

Ha! I was going to tease you a little because there are about 30 copies/links to that article on the site, but decided not to tease a guy with 10 posts. Yeah, it gets around.

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Re: No winterizer app this year

Post by llO0DQLE » November 16th, 2017, 1:10 am

I was in the same predicament. I paused way early this year, around 1st week of September. In past years, I'd pause around 3rd week of September and drop Winterizer around mid October. But, we had a bit of an Indian Summer and temps stayed around 10 C (50 F) - 15 C - (59 F) until just before Halloween. Then all of a sudden temps dropped to around freezing with subzero temps forecasted in 5 days. I dropped Winterizer as soon as I saw this and the forecast did remain true, so I'm hoping my roots got a bit of that N in a span of 2-3 days or so.

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