N-Ext products

Kentucky bluegrass, Fescue, Rye and Bent, etc
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N-Ext products

Post by dan10 » July 12th, 2018, 9:36 am

Anyone know if these products are worthwhile to add to one's lawn program ? I see them highly touted on You Tube over the past few months.

Air-8, RGS, Humic 12 and Minors are the ones talked about a lot.

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Re: N-Ext products

Post by rydaddy » July 12th, 2018, 12:00 pm

I have been looking at these as well. I'm having a hard time determining what % of what products are in them to see if I want to purchase. Personally I don't make my own BLSC or KH anymore. I found that if I purchase ready-to-go products I am better about making the time to actually apply them. In the long run, buying the base ingredients is definitely the right way to go - I just don't make the time for it.

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Re: N-Ext products

Post by Rp9110 » July 12th, 2018, 12:27 pm

I'm also curious about the N-Ext Air8 D-Thatch Combo and how effective it'd be versus renting the machines.

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Re: N-Ext products

Post by rucraz2 » July 12th, 2018, 7:42 pm

I got the bio package this spring to try. Pete at Gci turf is a great guy to chat with. I used the rgs and air 8 this spring when i sprayed my prodiamine. I did notice a difference but it wore off like any fertilizer does. I only used a 1/4 of an app since i have such a large yard. I did just put on the micro green and humic 12 this last week just on the front yard and it is looking good now. Not sure if its worth it for me and my large yard yet. Only time will tell. Its not cheap. We have discussed them on another forum this yr as well.

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Re: N-Ext products

Post by seiyafan » July 13th, 2018, 10:02 pm

I see the bio package is a mixture of four 1-gallon products, so does it come pre-mixed in one jug?


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Re: N-Ext products

Post by rucraz2 » July 14th, 2018, 4:38 am

No, 4 separate jugs

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Re: N-Ext products

Post by micvog » July 14th, 2018, 7:51 am

I got the Soil Activator Pack (RGS, D-Thatch, Air8, and GreeNe EfFect) from Pete at GCI. I was out of the ingredients I would usually purchase from Kelp-4-Less and Brambleberry to make BLKH and BLSC, I had some thatch build up, and I wanted to try FAS, so the pack was a good fit. The price seemed reasonable ($98 delivered for 1G each of those four items) and, as noted by rydaddy, pre-mixed is more convenient.

I broke the 4G up into 6 different apps. I have completed four. I didn't get the color pop I was looking for from the GreeNe EfFect, and as far as I can tell, the RGS/D-Thatch/Air8 work about as well as BLKH/Molasses/BLSC. Except for the GreeNe EfFect, I used my Ortho hand-held sprayer and did find the NExt products flowed better for me and the Air8 did not "foam" when agitated. In that sense, it was easier to apply.

My simple understanding of the NExt products relative to BLKH and BLSC is that they seem to emphasize humic acid at the expense of kelp. You can view the labels at http://www.greenecountyfert.com/diy/.

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Re: N-Ext products

Post by andy10917 » July 14th, 2018, 12:22 pm

I absolutely rolled on the floor laughing at the concept of them putting those products into a category on that site and calling it "DIY". What exactly is DIY about it? They put the exact same ingredients that we use (micronutrients, Kelp, humates) and add the water for you. There is a product that is a competitor product to the Air8 product called "Lazyman Soil Doctor". At least they are admitting the truth - these are products designed to trade your money for adding water for you, and they are paid royally for doing so.
I did the original research and design of the BLSC and KH products back in 2009/2010, but couldn't finish the testing due to work/travel commitments. Morph did the completion of the work and added his favorites and expertise on SLS and SLES, and documented it all. What do you think were the some of the original products that were reverse-engineered?
We've gone full-cycle. The only difference is who adds the water. No, there is another difference - the amount of money that is transferred from your pocket to a vendor's bank account (and the pocket of Youtube folks acting as middleman). If the published formulas on ATY create too large an amount of BLSC or KH for your 5K or 10K lawn, do 10 minutes of math and scale them down. If they foam for you, add a (cheap!) defoamer. This is simple stuff, not rocket science - give yourself a little credit.
I think that there is another angle at play that nobody will admit to -- "miracle in a bottle" effect. These products use roundabout, confusing descriptions to make simple stuff seem too complicated for anyone other than "experts" to understand. You need to pay them to put the miracle in the bottle. NO YOU DON'T. Skip the marketing nonsense and READ THE INGREDIENTS. That's what's in what you are buying.
What really bothers me is that the very same people that say that great lawn care is expensive or that the spouse is complaining about the costs of the lawn care hobby bristle at spending an extra 50 cents/lb for sod-quality seed or an extra bag of Urea at the end of the season, but pay multiple times the cost for the same exact active ingredients for someone to add water to the ingredients and stick a label on a bottle.

READ THE LABELS !!!!!!!!!!

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Re: N-Ext products

Post by Green » July 14th, 2018, 1:58 pm

Andy and Morph...

Jumping into this thread...

I bought the humate and kelp a few years ago and other than a trial run back then, never used them. After seeing the results people were getting with this latest push or trend with humic, whether with the DIY or commercial products, I decided it's time. I want to tweak your formulas to mimic some of the various products linked to above in terms of percentages (especially that AIR8 stuff), but was wondering...

Do you know what standard they use when they say 8% or 12% humic acid? Like is it W/W or W/V?

Also I see their labels state their humate is derived from Leonardite. Are there different sources or qualities...how important is the source?

Also, I noticed Potassium hydroxide as an inactive in one of that company's products. Guessing it's a buffer. Any comments on that?

How about using SLS versus just water? Benefits or drawbacks?

Also they include Potassium as a macro and various micros that my lawn doesn't need more of. Do you think including the macros and micros in the solution is any different than applying seperately? I've heard it suggested to apply humic substances at the same time as fertilizers due to supposed synergy. Any comments on that angle?

Finally how about water spiked with simple buffering agents (at a precise rate??) versus a water/SLS mix (which I don't know if SLS also have buffering abilities...I was wondering about that, too). I feel like going into this stuff in depth would have been a good off-season topic, but since it's Summer now, I figure I'd narrow down to some key questions and go slightly more in depth than the average person might.

If I need to start a new thread, let me know. I posted here because someone posted the link to some pre made product labels, which I was hoping to mimic. (Getting the percentages in the ballpark, and omitting the Kelp in the hot weather, basically...as I don't want it to push growth).

Thank you very much in advance!

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Re: N-Ext products

Post by PW405 » July 14th, 2018, 2:22 pm

Green wrote:
July 14th, 2018, 1:58 pm
Andy and Morph...
.....
...
Thank you very much in advance!
Very good questions I'd be interested to learn about as well.

One of the Youtube guys mentioned applying the humic acid with the same time as granular fertilizers. I started doing that this year. I'll apply any granular products, then wet down with BLSC and KH before watering in. I figured it can't hurt. Difficult to speak to the results with high confidence, but lawn is looking pretty good this year. However, also on a soil remediation plan.

I've wondered if there is any benefit to adding fulvic acid to KH. I randomly bought some during a light night online shopping spree and it has been sitting out in the garage unused.

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Re: N-Ext products

Post by andy10917 » July 14th, 2018, 3:23 pm

I'm going to beg out of responding with direct answers to the above questions, with an explanation...

If you study the extraction of Humic Acid from Leonardite (or other substances), you'll find that there is no standard and no comparable results. Products and methods that have higher "numbers" often have inflated results than larger (presumably more responsible and conservative) companies. I've been doing the testing of my (improved) BLSC2 formula for three years now, and have found that the soluble Humic Acid product from Kelp4Less and the granular HumicDG product from The Andersons work well, and others with higher "claimed" numbers don't work nearly as well.

Not only that, but I disagree with the premise and goals in the questions. We're back to the "miracle in a bottle" premise - you're implying that there is a perfect mix that one must mimic to get good results. I maintain that there are many "good answers" and that trying to pick the "best" is a fool's errand. If you believe there is magic in Air8 that requires precision that only that manufacturer knows, then we have to agree to disagree about whether the money you'll spend on Air8 is well-spent money. I'd rather keep 75% of my money and not put all of my eggs in one basket - I can afford to acquire other lawn products with the leftover money.

That all said, the original reverse-engineering that was done used a well-regarded product (not named - I hate someone suing me) and the results were the same or better, as we were more-focused on just lawns and not gardens, trees, etc also.

While it appears Morph differs in his opinion some with me, I am a big proponent of Yucca extracts as well as Humic Acid and they appear in my still-being-tested updated formulas. That doesn't mean Morph is wrong or I am wrong - there are as many right answers as ways to skin a cat.

Guys, I mean no disrespect to you or your questions. However, I don't have the data or inclination to mimic a single solution identically from someone else - I'd rather work on a solution that uses many of the same source materials to deliver a comparable product at a much-lower cost. I'm just going to stay focused on what my approach is, and how the results go, and a significantly lower cost. Read the labels for ingredients and see if it isn't the same stuff that we discuss day in and day out in the Soils Forum.

If you decide to embark on your own analysis of one or more of the formulas that others make, I wish you the best of luck. I guess in some way I'm saying that I've studied/tested BLSC, KH, and the ingredients in commercial products for 300-400 hours over the past decade, and I don't think that I have answers to all of your questions, but I know that my direction has taught me not to overfocus on mimicry -- just source materials and results.

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Re: N-Ext products

Post by Green » July 14th, 2018, 4:30 pm

Andy,

Thanks for the honesty and candidness, as well as info about how you arrived at your formulas.

But something still isn't clear and I'm going to ask it even if no one here can answer it...why are (most??) manufacturers not using SLS or something like it? Or maybe it's only a matter of time until more do. I'd love to ask them what the various inactives they use are for, but I doubt I would get an answer on trade secrets.

Also, I don't have time to delve into tons of background studies this year, so I'm just going to pick something easy to make and use it. Since I don't have SLS right now to try your and Morph's recipes (other than shampoo with it in it), I think I'll just mix using warm water initially.

The reason the Air8 concept sounded good was the idea of micro fracturing the pore spaces in the soil to help in areas prone to standing water. But what the heck...that product has less ingredients than BLSC or BLSC2. I don't see anything in it other than water, Potassium Hydroxide, and humic acid. They claim their process is key to making it effective, but is it really? I would guess your formulas (BLSC) would be more effective due to the SLS and yucca (which I don't have).

And I already know how Morph differs; he explained his idea that he's more focused on Kelp these days.

I guess there's no right or one single answer to improving soil structure with humic acid. I'm going to start simple and see what happens, and use my eyes. If using just water with it doesn't help enough after a dew apps, I'll try BLSC and hopefully BLSC2. I'm really hoping the simplest solution, warm water, works as well as the others...no disrespect to Andy, Morph, or the people who created the retail products and put lots of effort in! But I'm going to try what's easiest and least expensive first. I have talked with people who spray humic in just water, so why not try it since it's the easiest and cheapest method! I already have water and humic acid. Shampoo would be the next additive to try, before buying the SLS.

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Re: N-Ext products

Post by andy10917 » July 14th, 2018, 5:40 pm

I've seen some of the science behind the "microfracturing" due to KOH or NaOH. I put it away pretty quickly because KOH ("Caustic Potash") is even more alkaline than NaOH ("Lye"), and I figured that while it might be true theoretically, it would either be marginal (too weak) in the real world or subjecting the Microherd to a stronger-than-Lye bath on a regular basis. I don't buy it.
I have talked with people who spray humic in just water, so why not try it since it's the easiest and cheapest method!
Why even bother with the water? Use the granular HumicDG (The Andersons) and apply it with a spreader. I'm serious - not playing with your head. Hell, mix it with the Milorganite. The BLSC2 may go from a sprayer thing to a regimen that allows that kind of separation and flexibility.

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Re: N-Ext products

Post by rucraz2 » July 14th, 2018, 6:56 pm

Thanks for chiming in on this Andy. My only other question as I am a rookue is, GCF is claiming theirs is better because it is not derived from a powder. Does that play into effect? I didn't think it would. But I'm no expert. Also do you think adding fulvic to KH would add anything worth mentioning? I think PW405 asked this above. I have been wondering this myself. I didnt read if you answered him? Thanks for the great incite!

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Re: N-Ext products

Post by andy10917 » July 14th, 2018, 7:37 pm

Look, the job of a Marketing Dept is to convince the consumer that their product is better than the competition's. Ask for proof of the claim, and from a scientist - not a Marketer. In many cases, they buy the product where someone else dissolved the dry product into water (or a solvent). Does it really matter if they bought it mixed or dissolved it themselves? Other than shipping costs, it doesn't matter. To give you a better answer, I'd need for you to identify what product they're offering is making that claim (of better because not a powder)?

I love Fulvic Acid, but I really believe that the smaller Fulvic Acid molecule is best when applied in the foliar way, and Humic Acid is best applied to the soil. There is no easy way to do both at the same time efficiently. It's either one or the other, or two apps - are you up for that? The droplet size determines how efficient the foliar application will be - big droplets are high-loss, and humics can clog if we shoot for small droplet size. Pick your poison!

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Re: N-Ext products

Post by Green » July 14th, 2018, 9:29 pm

andy10917 wrote:
July 14th, 2018, 5:40 pm

Why even bother with the water? Use the granular HumicDG (The Andersons) and apply it with a spreader. I'm serious - not playing with your head. Hell, mix it with the Milorganite. The BLSC2 may go from a sprayer thing to a regimen that allows that kind of separation and flexibility.
Andy,

I realized a month ago I potentially made a huge mistake...not buying a bag of that stuff for 25 bucks when AM Leonard had free shipping. Problem was you had to spend 80 bucks. I asked family members if anyone needed any gardening supplies, but no one did.

Now with you and another guy who both really know your stuff saying that product is good, I wish I could have bought a bag even more, after realizing on my own. I will check with my two local suppliers to see if they stock it. Maybe one of them will have it for 25 bucks...

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Re: N-Ext products

Post by Green » July 14th, 2018, 9:32 pm

andy10917 wrote:
July 14th, 2018, 5:40 pm
I've seen some of the science behind the "microfracturing" due to KOH or NaOH. I put it away pretty quickly because KOH ("Caustic Potash") is even more alkaline than NaOH ("Lye"), and I figured that while it might be true theoretically, it would either be marginal (too weak) in the real world or subjecting the Microherd to a stronger-than-Lye bath on a regular basis. I don't buy it.
Ok, putting it in those terms...yuck. Doesn't sound like the best solution.

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Re: N-Ext products

Post by Green » July 14th, 2018, 11:01 pm

The other thing is, I wonder how the granular product we are comparing to compares to pure humic acid powder in terms of amount of humic acid. I mean the 50 lb bag must be using a carrier...?

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Re: N-Ext products

Post by andy10917 » July 14th, 2018, 11:05 pm

I think you've crossed into overthinking. Follow the bag instructions until you have enough experience to experiment. Then YOU write the rules. End of story.

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Re: N-Ext products

Post by Green » July 15th, 2018, 10:17 pm

Dan10, Andy, and others: I started looking into the AIR8 to find out more, and currently am looking at independent sources who aren't marketers or the people offering it for sale, but knowledgeable people when it comes to soil (one guy in particular who is extremely knowlegeable when it comes to the chemical reaction end of soil biology as it applies to grass). According to him (he reached out to the inventor of the product), the KOH is not an additive, but is a remnant of the process used to create the humic acid, and instead of separating it out via further reactions, the maker decided to leave some of it in the solution intentionally in the AIR8 product. This guy is putting the product through extensive trials of his own, so I'm not going to judge it and either consider using it or rule it out of contention until his results are in and are conclusive either way.

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